To: epicure who wrote (10224 ) 4/3/2001 1:07:29 PM From: Greg or e Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 82486 Now why do you say that X? I don't see how I have been unreasonable at all. You don't like the obvious conclusions to the reason I have offered here so you just dismiss it. I used to beat my older brother at chess when I was a kid, and he used to just give up, and tip the board over in frustration is that what you are doing? I have first pointed out, that the universe came into existence at a particular point in time and that it exhibits an incredible degree of complexity and design. Then I have argued that the most likely reason for a designed creation is a Creator/Designer. Am I ready for the nuthouse yet? Secondly I have said here that this creation contains not just matter, but also persons. These persons continue to act in ways that would cause, even a casual observer to think that there was some sort of ultimate moral order, under which, all people operate accordingly. So then, I have argued that the most likely explanation for a universe that exhibits design, personality and morality is a Personal, Moral, Creator. Can I try on one of those white suits, with the long sleeves? Finally, I have argued that If such a Personal, Moral, Creator,(let's call Him God) exists, then it is not at all beyond imagination that such a God Might choose to communicate with His creation. Many have claimed such communication, how might we determine which if any might be true. Well I have argued if such a God exists then He would have power to manipulate the physical world in any way that He desired. We would call these events "miracles". He would speak and act in accordance with His (moral) character and would hold us accountable to the same. He might even Show up in person sometime, and offer us a remedy for our obvious failure to meet His moral standards. Something that might Propitiate, or satisfy his Just requirements, and yet, allow Him to display another on of His important attributes, namely mercy. You don't seem to like my reasonable arguments, that's fine, but don't just dismiss them. Don't take your ball and go home, at least leave it here for the rest of us.