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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Solon who wrote (10266)4/3/2001 6:42:23 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
footnotes from previous post...

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Footnotes
Baseball is also a useful case in point. Suppose I am playing this game and I have three strikes against me. The umpire calls me "out" and I must leave the plate. This seems like an imposition from without. But the rules of the game were invented quite arbitrarily by people like me, and I entered the game with the tacit agreement that I would play according to those rules. Thus the rules are a completely human convention, having, and in fact needing, no metaphysical or theological base. Yet I and the other players easily abide by them, sometimes doing so quite "religiously." This latter situation would suggest that human beings are inherently a rule-making species.

People of other faiths, continuing to preach the will of other gods, would find themselves morally benefited in essentially the same way as Christians.
Additonal Commentary
Moral Education
To the extent that the points in the above article are either consciously or unconsciously understood, it becomes possible to directly formulate improved ways of promoting moral behavior. That is, when people agree on how human values are actually derived, they are better able to stimulate relevant areas and develop curricula in moral education that can prove increasingly useful and effective.

In particular, by understanding that the survival of our species is a common interest, and that we share common requirements for survival, we can go a long way toward promoting cooperation. We are further enabled to educate others about relevant survival factors, such as health and hygiene.

The study of anthropology and biology teach us our interconnectedness with varying human cultures and the whole animal kingdom, thereby allowing us to learn things about ourselves that inform the development of our ethical, moral, and legal systems. Such systems, when so derived, then meet our needs more effectively and reduce strife.

Because we share common passions, the role of moral education need not limit itself to focusing on useful and practical rules of conduct. It is enabled to turn itself additionally to the development of helpful emotions. For example, compassion is fostered and developed through educational programs where students have opportunities to experience what it's like to be, say, paralyzed, blind, or deaf. A good part of compassion seems to be the ability to identify with those who suffer -- so this ability, if developed further, can enable society to produce a generation of young people who are more respectful of the rights of others, more helpful in situations calling for altruistic behavior, and more just in their dealings with people in general.

Science that provides improved knowledge of our world allows us to come to more informed decisions about dealing with the environment. Rational laws and practices are thus more likely.

Education in logic and other aspects of reasoning allows people to better analyze situations and to come to less biased decisions on matters of policy.

In short, a liberal education appears to provide excellent moral training because it offers the knowledge and sophistication necessary to continue the ongoing trial-and-error process of finding better ways to live and cooperate.

Situation Ethics
Since the process of improving ethics IS a trial-and-error one, then it is reasonable to keep ethical principles flexible. After all, if a given principle is rigid and absolutistic, it tends to foster a kind of idolatry where people worship the rule instead of its intent. Since good and evil are ultimately judged from human need and interest, then it only makes sense for all moral principles to work toward meeting human needs and serving human interests -- as opposed to becoming ends in themselves.

Believing, on the other hand, that moral values come from God has inspired many throughout history to practice idolatry with moral principles.

For example, in an effort to follow the commandment to keep the Sabbath (wherein the Bible specifically declares that one shall not do work on that day nor have any servants or animals work either), many have supported Sunday closing laws. Yet, even when such laws are in effect, vital services, such as those of medical and law enforcement, are kept operative. A truly absolute practice of this commandment would require that even THOSE services be shut down and given a day of rest. This inconsistency is clearly in response to actual human needs, which become, in practice, more important than the absolute rule. A position that is therefore both consistent and moral is one where Sunday closing laws are abandoned altogether, such laws being, at best, useless and at worst, harmful.

The simple commandment, "Thou shalt not kill," admits of numerous exceptions, which believers readily embrace, such as self-defense, killing of animals, killing of germs, and so forth. Re-translation of the commandment so that it reads, "Thou shalt commit no murder" doesn't solve the problem because the commandment fails to define "murder," which, in ordinary language, is just whatever form of killing happens currently to be unlawful. By this criterion, abortion, not being legally declared murder, could not constitute breaking the commandment. So, there is no getting around the fact that differing denominations of Christians and Jews variously interpret this command to allow and disallow capital punishment, vivisection, war, self-defense, abortion, euthanasia, and vaccinations. A simple rule to never kill cannot be followed and the result is always a catalogue of cases where it is and is not all right to take a life. This is, in effect, situation ethics, meaning that the rule has de facto already been abandoned.

"Thou Shalt Not Steal" is a similar rule. It isn't practiced absolutely, either. For example, in wartime, and even in peace, national secrets are constantly stolen from one nation by agents of another as part of security efforts. And these thefts are supported frequently by believers in this commandment. Further, we can ask if kleptomania constitutes a breaking of this rule, since we may be entitled to excuse the action on the ground of emotional illness.

But the most telling problem of absolutistic systems like the Ten Commandments is that any time there is more than one absolute rule, conflicts between the rules are possible. Thus, one can ask if it is appropriate to kill to prevent a theft. Can you rob to prevent a killing? Should you lie if you have good reason to believe the truth will cause the recipient to die of a heart attack? Is it appropriate to lie to keep from being killed? Can you break the Sabbath to save someone's life? Would you steal a car if you knew it would prevent the owner from working on the Sabbath or killing someone? Should you honor the request of your father and mother if they ask you to break any of the other commandments? Would you rob from your father and mother if doing so could prevent a murder? All kinds of dilemmas like this are possible.

Which shows that we cannot live by absolute, abstract principles. We need to relate them to life and human needs -- and our best judges and juries do just that. This is where human compassion comes in. This is why there exists within the law varying degrees of murder, and why motive is such an important issue in deciding criminal penalties.

These practices are reasonable because the nature of the world doesn't lend itself easily to bipolar, either-or, types of determinations. Things admit of degrees. Absolute morals attempt to ignore such distinctions. Applying what perhaps could be termed a "digital" (yes, no) moral system to an "analog" world can only result in a poor fit. The two don't go well together. Of course, either-or laws DO exist in such areas as traffic regulations. This is because they have proven themselves useful in being easy to remember when reflex action is a common necessity. But inappropriate traffic laws HAVE been changed when they proved unworkable. I would suggest that the overriding principle is the long-range service of humanity -- and this is true even when people apply what they imagine are "absolute" standards.

In sum, there is nothing to be feared from the loss of absolutes. They never really existed. Chaos does not reign. Instead, trial-and-error efforts to sharpen laws, render institutions more effective, and fit moral principles better to improved knowledge of human nature continues. The genuine human needs and concerns that led to the formulation of the Ten Commandments and other such supposed absolutes has also fueled their greater sophistication within our vast body of changing laws and ethics.

The Goal
When we realize that right and wrong cannot exist without beings with needs, and that human beings have proven themselves capable of devising and then abiding by their own rules, then there is no longer any way to deny that the pursuit of human interest, for the individual and for society, for the short and for the long run, is the broad goal of laws and ethics. Further, this does not really need an explanation or justification, except to those who have lost sight of the actual basis for their own values. That is, no one needs to be asked why he or she pursues his or her own interests, and no planet of people needs to be asked why it seeks to pursue common goals. Only when people try to depart from this most automatic of pursuits, only when someone posits a law higher than what is good for humanity, need any questions be raised -- for it is only THEN that an explanation or justification of a moral base is necessary.

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This is the text of "The Human Basis of Laws and Ethics" as it appeared in the May/June 1985 issue of The Humanist -- though footnotes and commentary expanding selected points have been adapted from the, longer, original manuscript. The latter was first presented in January 1985 as a paper at, "Christianity Challenges the University: An International Conference of Theists and Atheists," sponsored by a group of evangelicals and held in Dallas, Texas. The author is the executive director of the American Humanist Association.

© Copyright 1985 by Frederick Edwords



To: Solon who wrote (10266)4/4/2001 12:35:45 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
Actually, most theists understand that one can have ethics without religion, because one has a stake in society as a human being, and therefore can derive basic rules for the interaction of individuals to conduce to peace, stability, and enterprise within society. Additionally, most theists understand that God is beyond any predicate used to describe Him, and outside of time and space, and therefore without a body. They are not anthropomorphists in any deep sense. However, by analogy, they suppose that of the things in their experience, He most resembles human beings. For the theist, morality is woven into the fabric of things, and is therefore available to persons from various faith traditions (as St. Paul refers to the "law written in the heart"). Only ceremonial or cultic rules are necessary to promulgate specially. Thus, even the ancient Rabbis spoke of the Noahides, the Sons of Noah-- non- Jews, who tried to live righteously, and were outside of the demands of the Mosaic Law in its ceremonial aspect. God is responsible for the moral law in the same way that He is responsible for the law of gravity, or the second law of thermodynamics, it is part of the fundamental order of things. Finally, the idea of God as Judge has little to do with controlling behaviour, especially given the reliance on mercy, and the Christian's reliance specifically on the redeeming power of the Crucifixion. Rather, it has to do with the idea that the moral order needs to be vindicated in the long run, as it is not clearly and visibly to us in this life, and therefore, in the end there must be some kind of accounting.........

To put it another way, the essay you post is beating more than one dead horse.......



To: Solon who wrote (10266)4/4/2001 12:40:43 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
There is a tendency on the part of many theists to assume that the burden of proof is on the nontheist when it comes to the issue of morality

I will not ever forget Joseph Cambell's recounting of
attending an intimate lecture by Martin Buber in
1954 in New York .

This wonderfully eloquent speaker and reknowned
Jewish scholar and theologian was using the term
"God " so frequently , that Campbell was trying to
understand what he meant when he was using the term.

He didn't understand if Buber was refering to the God
that was behind all these mysteries &
behind all these Galaxies who is infinite....or
at some stage or other of the primitive ancient
Biblical diety who is transformed and
embellished upon down from one
century to another in Old Testement
mythology.

Also , at one point in the lecture ,
Buber pauses for a moment to remark :

" It pains me to speak of God in the third person "...?!?

A little later when Campbell tells this to Bishop Schone
the Bishop replies that Buber sometimes has a tendendency
to go a little too far...hehe

So , Campbell a little later on raises his hand ,
and says to Buber :

" There is a word here that you are using ,
that I don't understand ".


Buber replies: "What is that word?"

Campbell simply answers: " God "

Well you can imagine the hush that
falls over the room when Buber replies: YOU DON'T
KNOW WHAT GOD MEANS!!?


And Campbell probing further :
" I don't know what you mean by God...you
are telling us that he has hidden his face ,
nobody sees him today .....
Mr Buber, I have just come from India where people
are experiencing & looking upon the face of
God all the time..."


So what does this renowned Jewish theologian respond with ?

"DO YOU MEAN TO COMPARE THE GOD OF ISRAEL TO THE GOD THEY SEE IN INDIA ?!?"

....well at that point , the shear outrageousness
of that statement hung heavily in the room , and
the moderator steps in , and placates Buber ,
saying " No , Doctor Buber , Mr Campbell just wants to know what you mean ....

Buber still reeling , but somewhat calmer says :
Well....we all have to come out
of exile in our own way. "....ahem.


** Campbell goes on to make the observation that
the Indians are not in exile because
the God is within their own being .

These are the differences when you run into
discussions cross-culturally , when you
are talking comparitive religion.
Of course the idea of superiority persists
to this day ...the battles go on.

and some remain forever in exile
fighting to return...or waiting for The Messiah.

The truth always was and is ...there
never was any exile to begin with.

Mars