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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: thames_sider who wrote (10559)4/5/2001 1:39:55 PM
From: Greg or e  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
This from a essay about Jonathan Edwards by J White. (my Bold)

Man's nature as fallen is the counterpart to the sovereignty of God as the central conviction of his thought. It has been said that those who feel no conviction of sin either know little of God, or little of themselves, or both. When one has the view of the holiness of God reflected in Edwards' memoirs above, and which shall permeate his writings to follow, one must also see sin in a dread fashion, even when that sin is part of one's own life. While from the "world's" view his life would be exemplary, yet Edwards knew in his heart his own pride, rebellion, and slothfulness. From the contrast of the great holiness of God and his own sin comes his rapture with the Gospel of grace. Indeed, it can be seen that without the elements of the true nature of God and a true apprehension of the fallenness of man, the grace of God seen in the Gospel would never be truly appreciated.



To: thames_sider who wrote (10559)4/5/2001 1:54:43 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
The doctrine of Total Depravity historical goes along with predestinarianism and the doctrine of election, the irresistibility of God's grace, and the narrow intent of Christ's sacrifice (which occurred only for the elect).

I believe it was Gregory Nazianzen (one of the Greek Fathers) who affirmed that God will's the salvation of all, but that His gift must be accepted. This was, ultimately, the doctrine affirmed at the Council of Trent, against the Calvinists (and, incidentally, in opposition to the Thomistic doctrine of ineluctable grace).

The doctrine of total depravity does not merely assert that grace is required to stand in the presence of God, but that man is mostly a vile creature by nature, that even his good deeds are corrupt in intention, and that the image of God in man has been almost obliterated. Not only is this not obviously Scriptural, it in fact contradicts those instances where God saves someone and his family because of his righteousness, for example, Noah and Lot, or calls someone righteous for his faith, like Abraham. It especially contradicts Job, who was understood to be a righteous gentile, and who refused to abandon God even in the face of undeserved misfortune.

Furthermore, it belies the observed facts, where benevolence and malevolence are both present in force within the childish individual, and where discipline can markedly improve character. It is one thing to say that no man is entirely free of sin, and another to say that all men are almost entirely devoid of goodness. We are characterized as prodigal sons, or lambs that have strayed, creatures still dear to the father or shepherd, in the parables, not as moral horrors barely worth saving.



To: thames_sider who wrote (10559)4/5/2001 6:27:36 PM
From: Solon  Respond to of 82486
 
There is not a lot to say. These old documents have been discussed and examined for their historical interest, as well as for their depiction of paganism and power. It is a waste of time to repeatedly reveal that the Christian bible is a collation of pagan beliefs interwoven with Judaism.

For those willing to go past four paragraphs (smile, K.!), there is an interesting (and repulsive) account in the following, of early abortions as they related to some of the pagan rituals.

Aletheia writes:

The books of the New Testament were written on papyrus, some in Greek and some in Latin; "Matthew" was written in Syro-Chaldaic; "Mark," "Luke," "John," Acts, and Romans, in Greek. Twenty-seven books are now considered to be canonical, but there were sixty-one others now classed as apocryphal. "Twelve were excluded at first, but afterwards received as canonical; among the apocryphal books were 'the Gospel of the Egyptians,' one of the Essene Scriptures, and one a Gospel which circulated among the Christians of the first three centuries, containing the doctrine of a 'Trinity,' a doctrine which was not established in the Christian Church till 327 C.E., but which was taught by a Buddhist sect in Alexandria. There were forty-one, consisting of absurd fables, many of which are lost; and twenty-eight writings mentioned or referred to in the various canonical books, which also are lost." [H.J. Hardwicke, "Evolution and Creation."]

"Out of 182 works accepted for centuries as the genuine writings of Christians during the first 180 years of the present era, only twelve are now contended by theologians to be genuine; 170 forged writings permitted by the alleged 'Guider into all truth' to have existed for centuries, and believed in by poor, feeble man." [Julian, "Old and New Testament Examined."] The manufacture of some of these manuscripts probably took place at the great monastery at Mount Athos, in Salonica, where about "60,000 monks were employed" [Investigator, "Origin of the Christ Church."] in that occupation. The first that we know of the four Christian gospels is in the time of Irenaeus, who, in the second century, intimates that he has "received four gospels as authentic scriptures." "This pious forger was probably the adapter of the John Gospel." [Investigator, "Origin of the Christian Church."]

Three accounts are given of how the books which now appear in the New Testament were chosen: (1) That by Popius, in his "Synodicon" to the Council of Nicaea, says that 200 "versions of the gospel were placed under a Communion table, and, while the Council prayed, the inspired books jumped on the slab, but the rest remained under it." (2) That by Irenmus says "the Church selected the four most popular of the gospels." (3) That by the Council of Laodicea (366) says that "each book was decided by ballot. The Gospel of Luke escaped by one vote, while the Acts of the Apostles and the Apocalypse were rejected as forgeries."
__________________________________________

In one of the gospels (The Gospel of Eve), some of the pagan beliefs and rituals that were taken out of the Christian canon appear. Epiphanius was actually involved in some of these Christian rituals.

"He took Mary (probably Magdalene) to a mountain, took a woman out of his side and had sex with her, then drank his own sperm saying: "Thus we ought to do, that we may live."

Epiphanius' testimony carries weight, because he admits that he himself fell in among them. He reports that they shared their women in common. They celebrated sexual orgies in which partners were swapped. Coitus interruptus was the normal practice. Semen was collected and offered to the Lord as the body of Christ, before being consumed. The Gnostics also consumed women's menstrual blood.

The theology behind the lechery was anything but world-affirming. It varied from one sub-sect to another. In outline the material world was ruled by an evil "archon" or intermediate deity. The bodily flesh belonged to this archon, and would not be raised up.

The power of the soul was found in semen and menses. But allowing semen to beget children in this world would play into the hands of the evil archon. So if by accident a woman fell pregnant, the sect would abort the foetus. They would pound it in a mortar, mix it with honey and spices, and eat it.

The beautiful women in the sect used to set themselves out as bait to recruit new followers. Some formed a male elite called Levites, who did not have sex with women but only with each other.

Jesus himself, they said, was the first teacher of these practices. He took Mary (probably Magdalene) to a mountain, took a woman out of his side and had sex with her, then drank his own sperm saying: "Thus we ought to do, that we may live." The sect even claimed that when Jesus at the Last Supper spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he was referring to this practice.

Poor Epiphanius prayed to God, resisted the women, and freed himself from the sect. He then reported them to the bishops, who drove eighty of them from the city.

The accounts and texts are from: Wilhelm Schneemelcher, New Testament Apocrypha, James Clarke & Co-

Of course, these people were so much closer to the events of Christian genesis, that scholars 2000 years after these events, can safely ignore them in favor of whatever they choose to invent...

I'm off to work. No time for nonsensical bickering over "original sin" where God tells his kids that He doesn't want them to know the difference between good and evil (how moral)--so he places the information in their midst!, not knowing whether or not they will become moral agents through knowing the difference between right and wrong. Without this knowledge they cannot BE moral because they have no choice to make. However, logic, never gets in the way of primitive tales so they do their thing. However, they do not becomes Gods as God feared they would--or did they...

The ancient world teemed with these old myths, fables, etc. They are interesting reading, and very instructive at times. Why people would limit their pursuit of knowledge to a few grains of sand on the beach of primitive myth, however, is beyond my ken...