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To: p40warhawk who wrote (413)	4/6/2001 7:59:17 AM
From: TimbaBear	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 2462

P40Warhawk It sounds to me like maybe you should take a break from the market. Please believe me when I say I mean no disrespect to you with that advice. But you are clearly in an emotional turmoil that appears to have it roots in theological confusion. Since the root of the problem appears not to be the market, but your relationship to it, then I suggest that the answer lies elsewhere for you. Perhaps with a minister or some other "member of the cloth". I believe most major religious organizations have some of their accumulated money invested in some aspects of the market, and maybe it would do you good to find out why they don't have a problem with it and use their answers to ease your crisis. As someone who has no agenda for you, and as a stranger, it is perhaps more obvious to me (and to some others here on the thread) that you have lost some of your objectivity. A case in point is this quote from your last post "....Any "game" that requires a loser for each winner is not an investment, it is a Las Vegas style wager, no more and no less...." P40, I have seen you post over the years and I know you know better than this. I could buy a stock for 40, sell it to you at 45 and make a profit and you could sell it someone else at 50 and make a profit, and if this stock goes to 100 and each owner sold it for a $5 profit, there would be 20 people who didn't get hurt in the transactions. Therefore, there was not a loser for each transaction. My honest opinion, my friend, is that you need to take a break. I wouldn't do anything rash with any investments you already own. Just step back, get away from the market for a while, talk to someone whose spiritual counsel you can accept, and enjoy the myriad other aspects of life until you regain your center. Timba

To: p40warhawk who wrote (413)	4/6/2001 9:33:22 AM
From: manfmnantucket	Respond to of 2462

>I agree that the market does not create new wealth, but companies do. OK, well we agree there - I'm only talking about the myth of wealth creation as regards stocks. The companies certainly create profit for themselves, but apart from dividends, none of that profit goes to shareholders. A company can lose tons of money and see share price rise, or it can be wildly profitable and have its stock plummet. >that company develops the ability to create those widgits because you and I invested in it, then That is not the case, as we've established. The company gets zero from our buying its stock in the secondary market. Only the person who sold the stock does - or they lose, depending on their purchase price. >Any "game" that requires a loser for each winner is not an investment yep, I agree. >it is a Las Vegas style wager Not sure what those are, but if you're talking about sports betting or collecting, I agree. If you're talking about slot machines, disagree - that's gambling on pure random chance and there is no way you can use knowledge/data to affect the outcome. >If I decide that you have defined this stock market process correctly How can you decide otherwise? We're not making this stuff up. However, I do have an "out" for your moral dilemma... a backwards rationale, where the end sorta justifies the means: If the secondary market of "wagering" on stocks did not exist, the primary capital market, i.e. the ability for companies to get lots of capital from the public - would not exist. The fact that you and I and millions are willing to wager on company performance via stocks makes it feasible for companies to issue IPOs in the first place, and that's where they get our money basically for free - in exchange for granting us the right to resell/wager their shares. Otherwise, all investment would have to occur via private placements. So is it still "immoral"? Would you attend a "Las Vegas Night" to benefit your local church or shelter? MFN