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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cosmicforce who wrote (10672)	4/6/2001 6:54:33 PM
From: TimF	Respond to of 82486

This is arbitrary, IMO. The dynamics of the Cold War were largely engineered by us. We knew that many of the missiles in Red Square were mock-ups. Clearly the Soviets knew it -- the only people that didn't were the Soviet people and the American people. The cold war was started by the Soviets turning Eastern Europe into part of a Soviet Empire and a base to potentially attack the West. The US demobilized after WWII. Declassified US military studies show that if the Soviets had attacked before we rebuilt our military (mostly during the Korean war), they would probably have been able to take Europe even when we had the bomb and they did not. Our bombs at the time couldn't have stoped them, it just would have made the price very high. We shouldn't be surprised when our spying efforts backfire (largely relics of the Cold War) and cause international incidents. Anyone remember when we violated Soviet airspace ALL THE TIME with U-2s and SR-71s? How soon we forget. Violating soviet airspace is one thing. Flying outside of chinese airspace is a very different thing. You could more accurately call the first a spy flight and the second a recon mission. Traditionally a spy pretends to be something he isn't and infiltrates the enemy. Our P-3 was full of uniformed military personel and was flying in international waters. It had as much right to be there as it does to fly over US territory. Tim

To: cosmicforce who wrote (10672)	4/6/2001 7:20:27 PM
From: The Philosopher	Respond to of 82486

Anyone remember when we violated Soviet airspace ALL THE TIME with U-2s and SR-71s? How soon we forget. Sure. I remember Gary Powers well. Kholt and I may be the only people on this thread who remember Gary Powers and Ike as a current event, not a historical event. But in the present case, were weren't violating their airspace (except in as much as they claim airspace they clearly aren't entitled to claim under international law. Heck, we under their argument we could claim the whole Pacific triangle bounded by Hawaii, California, and Alaska. But we don't.) That's the major difference. If we had been violating their airspace, no argument. But if it's an unarmed plane, they have the obligation first to demand that it leave (as the Russians recently did with a Delta flight) and if we don't, then to shoot us down,. But that's not the case here. Even the Chinese seem to have given up on the argument that we were in a place we had no right to be.