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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Solon who wrote (7297)4/13/2001 8:07:57 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 28931
 
MORE ON THE HISTORICTY OF JESUS...

Comparing Jesus to other historical figures

Many Christian apologists attempt to extricate themselves from their lack of evidence, claim that if we cannot rely on the post chronicle exegesis of Jesus, then we cannot establish a historical foundation for other figures such as Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Socrates, etc. However, there is a vast difference between historical figures and Jesus. There occurs either artifacts, writings, or eyewitness accounts for historical people, whereas, for Jesus we have nothing.
Alexander, for example, left a wake of destroyed and created cities behind. We have buildings, libraries and cities, such as Alexandria, left in his name. We have treaties, and even a letter from Alexander to the people of Chios, engraved in stone, dated at 332 B.C.E. For Socrates, we have the eyewitness writings of Plato that depicts his philosophy and life. Napoleon left behind artifacts, eyewitness accounts and letters. We can establish some historicity to these people because we have evidence that occurred during their life times. Yet even with the contemporary artifacts, historians have become wary of stories of many of these historical people. For example, some of the stories of Alexander or Nero starting the fire in Rome are questioned or doubted because they contain inconsistencies or come from authors who wrote years after the alleged facts. In qualifying the history of Alexander, Pierre Briant writes, "Although more than twenty of his contemporaries chronicled Alexander's life and campaigns, none of these texts survive in original form. Many letters and speeches attributed to Alexander are ancient forgeries or reconstructions inspired by imagination or political motives. The little solid documentation we possess from Alexander's own time is mainly to be found in stone inscriptions from the Greek cities of Europe and Asia." [Briant]
Interestingly, almost all important historical people have descriptions of what they looked like. Plato described what Socrates looked like, we have busts of Greek and Roman aristocrats, artwork of Napoleon, etc. We have descriptions of facial qualities, height, weight, hair length & color, age and even portraits of most important historical figures. But for Jesus, we have nothing. Nowhere in the Bible do we have a description of the human shape of Jesus. How can we rely on the Gospels as the word of Jesus when no one describes what he looked like? How odd that none of the disciple characters record what he looked like, yet they are attributed to know exactly what he said. Indeed, this gives us a clue that Jesus came to the gospel writers and indirect and through myth. Not until hundreds of years after the alleged Jesus did pictures emerge as to what he looked like from cult Christians, and these widely differed from a blond clean shaven, curly haired Apollonian youth (found in the Roman catacombs) to a long-bearded Italian as depicted to this day. This mimics the pattern of Greek mythological figures as their believers constructed various images of what their gods looked like according to their own cultural image.


Historial people leave us with contemporary evidence, but for Jesus we have nothing. If a fair comparison should be made to the "evidence" of Jesus, then it would better compare him with a mythical figure such as Hercules.

If Jesus, then why not Hercules?
If a person accepts hearsay and accounts from believers as historical evidence for Jesus, then should they not act consistently to other accounts based solely on hearsay and belief?

To take one example, examine the evidence for the Hercules of Greek mythology and you will find it parallels the historicity of Jesus to such an amazing degree that for Christian apologists to deny Hercules as a historical person belies and contradicts the very same methodology used for a historical Jesus.

Note that Herculean myth resembles Jesus in many areas. Hercules was a human born from a God (Zeus) and a mortal chaste mother (Alcmene). Similar to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus, Hera wanted to kill Hercules. Like Jesus, Hercules traveled the earth as a mortal helping mankind and performed miraculous deeds. Like Jesus who died and rose to heaven, Hercules died, rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god. Hercules was perhaps the most popular hero in Ancient Greece and Rome. They believed that he actually lived, told stories about him, worshiped him, and dedicated temples to him.

Likewise the "evidence" of Hercules closely parallels that of Jesus. We have historical people like Hesiod and Plato who mentions Hercules. Similar to the way the gospels tell a narrative story of Jesus, so do we have the epic stories of Homer who depict the life of Hercules. Aesop tells stories and quotes the words of Hercules. Just as we have mention of Jesus in Joesphus' Antiquities, so also does Joesphus mention Hercules in Antiquities (see: 1.15; 8.5.3; 10.11.1). Just as Tacitus mentions a Christus, so does he also mention Hercules many times in his Annals. And most importantly, just as we have no artifacts, writings or eyewitnesses about Hercules, we also have nothing about Jesus. All information about Hercules and Jesus comes from stories, beliefs, and hearsay. Should we then believe in a historical Hercules, simply because ancient historians mention him and that we have stories and beliefs about him? Of course not, and the same must apply to Jesus if we wish to hold any consistency to historicity.

People consider Hercules a myth because people no longer believe in the Greek and Roman stories. Christianity and its church authorities, on the other hand, still hold a powerful influence on governments, institutions, and colleges...

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To: Solon who wrote (7297)4/14/2001 9:20:08 AM
From: PJ Strifas  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
"They are the marks of plagiarism, and prove conclusively that Christianity is a lie"

The post goes to great lengths to prove that Christianity was "plagiarized" from older philosophies/religions - if we are to believe this (I don't doubt it) then Christianity was borne of "truth" and in and of itself is "true". The lie would be claiming it is "new" or not like any other teachings.

Claiming Christianity "a lie" would also tie back to the religions/philosophies it "borrowed" from as lies as well. To make an analogy - take a copy of a picture of the Statue of Liberty, change the coloring, enlarge it and call it by a different name - does that make it not a photo of a large statue of a woman holding a book in one hand and a torch in another hand?

I'd also point out that much of the similarities of the ancient religions is not evidence of plagarism but rather proof there is a "higher power" (call it God, Krishna, Yahweh etc). I mean why "borrow" something if it doesn't work or make sense?

Just a few thoughts on this festive weekend :)

Regards,
Peter J Strifas