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Politics : High Tolerance Plasticity -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: whitepine who wrote (3650)4/22/2001 9:12:55 PM
From: Tommaso  Respond to of 23153
 
How about. Some shorter. Messages.



To: whitepine who wrote (3650)4/23/2001 12:22:56 AM
From: Zeuspaul  Respond to of 23153
 
Whitepine> Perhaps you can document the actions CA tried to take to increase production during the last decade in opposition to FERC and Edison.

www0.mercurycenter.com
Put these (key state commission's prediction that they were needed because California's) words in the search box and you will see...

UTILITIES FOUGHT ATTEMPTS TO BOOST POWER
SUPPLY, MONITORING IN '90S

The state's three largest utilities blocked attempts to build more power plants six years ago despite a key state commission's prediction that they were needed because California's demand for electricity would begin to soar.

At the time, the utilities called those forecasts of increased demand-- since proven frighteningly accurate -- outrageous. They appealed to the federal government, which overruled the state's efforts to increase the supply of electricity. To settle their dispute with the state


It will cost you $1.95 to read the entire article (Mastercaharge and Visa accepted<g>)

Someone (read the state and taxpayers) would have to pay the 20% tax to ensure that each producer received their 20%. For myself, I would move to CA and buy a $3Mil yacht and establish a charter service. Sales and rentals would not matter. Even though few might charter my services, I would be guaranteed 20%. In fact, as my costs went up, so would my profit. My bags are packed…

Ok let me try again. The guarantee I choose is the same guarantee the utilities were given prior to deregulation. I am not arguing for a change. I am arguing for a continuation of a system that was a proven functioning system....this for the regulated utilities in California.

Zeuspaul >The supply of energy is short because of poor planning by the energy producers. [*ABC*]

Zeuspaul > The so called *free market* has been in place for many years and it DID NOT result in an electric power system with adequate capacity. Whitepine> This sentence contradicts your position in [*ABC*] above.

I don't see the contradiction. The energy producers are market driven...if the market does not drive them to increase capacity then they don't plan to increase capacity.

Taking your example a step further. Assume it is a hot day. I am willing to buy your water @ $2/glass. Thousands of others are also willing to buy your water. In fact, the line is so long that it stretches over the horizon. You only have 20 gallons to sell. Zeuspaul Why do I only have 20 glasses of water to sell? Whitepine> 20 gallons, 2000 gallons, no difference. The point is finite supply. Everything is scarce. Point is that if you do not use the price system, you MUST use some other criteria, and prejudice is the only alternative.

The market is also a form of prejudice. Let's put Bill Gates in line. He has a swimming pool and wants to fill it. Free market theory says he gets all the water and everyone else goes thirsty.

My proposed form of prejudice is to allocate everyone a quarter of a glass of water for a dime. A half glass of water for a buck. And you get a whole glass of water for two dollars. You can have a gallon of water for ten bucks and the rest goes to the highest bidder.

Zeuspaul >You can't argue with success...LADWP has plenty of power available at reasonable cost. They do not have to ration their power. Whitepine> Observe your misunderstanding of economics. You casually use the words “plenty of power at reasonable cost” as though they have enough to supply the entire state. They do not! Their capacity is finite.

You sure do like to hold my feet to the fire. The LADWP has plenty of power at reasonable cost for their own customer base. They have additional power available as they plan for times of drought in the Sierras. They currently have more power than they need so they sell it outside their user base. Their charge is to plan and produce power for the City of Los Angeles and they successfully meet their obligation. Whose obligation is it to provide power to citizens in California that are not served by public power? Are the citizens in LA better off than the citizens in California who are not served by public power?

If public power works in the City of Los Angeles it is reasonable to assume that the model will work on a state level.

So are you suggesting that any entity that promised to produce power was, or is, guaranteed 15% profit without regard to the price of production? If so, CA would have had much more investment, regardless the costs or(in)efficiencies. Profit would have been guaranteed. Such was not the case or thousands of corps would have installed billions of solar cells and tacked on 15% to their costs since profit was guaranteed by the state.

I don't know the terms of their guarantees. They made a profit and they built power plants in California and the system was working. It was not in need of repair.

If the system was inefficient then the independent power producers would have no difficulty competing with them. Independent power producers and regulated utilities and public utilities provide a balanced system. The system that produces power at the lowest cost will grow in relation to the other two. One system should not be allowed to grow so large that it completely dominates as that is when abuses are more likely to occur.

Zeuspaul >If you want market based power you will have a short supply. Market based experiments have proven this to be the case.

Whitepine> Just one example is need to vitiate your generalization.


The existing power shortage in California. Specifically San Diego citizens have been subjected to full market rates. Their bills have tripled and there is still a short supply of juice in San Diego. They cut usage due to the high price of juice and the shortage remains and the price remains high.

The effect of market rate juice is the producer gets a lot more money for producing the same amount of juice. Where is the incentive to produce more? If they produce more then the price will go down and they will incur the additional cost of increased production.

CA has experienced growth during the last decade, yet by your own admission, no new production facilities have been built in the last decade. In your previous post you said, “If systems are working it is generally not a good idea to monkey around with them...especially on a large scale.”

No new large facilities. The deregulation scheme began in 1994 which was the beginning of the end of power plant construction.

From the California Energy Commission
energy.ca.gov

In the early 1990s before the State’s electricity generation industry was restructured, the California Energy Commission certified 11 power plants. Of these, three were never built due to market conditions. Eight plants are now generating 952 megawatts (MW) of electricity. Additionally, a project approved in 1994 has a 44 MW second phase now under construciton, which is scheduled to be on line by May 2001. No power plant applications were filed with the Energy Commission between 1994 and 1998 because there was so much uncertainty during the restructuring of the electricity industry.

Electricity deregulation occurred in March 1998. Thirteen power plants have been approved by the Commission since 1999 with a total of 8,464 megawatts (MW). Of those, seven are under construction, totalling 4,808 MW, with five (totalling 2,412 MW) slated to be on line or partially on line by the end of 2001. There are 13 power plants under review by the Commission (excluding Emergency Peaker Plants) with 6,187 MW. Other those, nine are in the formal review process with 3,707 MW, and four more are still pending data adequacy before they start the formal process. These total 2,480 MW. These projects under review excludes Nueva Azalea (550 MW), applicant requested that its license process be suspended. Information on the peaker projects currently under review are located on another page.


new quote

Zeuspaul >Some things are best left under government control. The government has a good track record building and maintaining roads.
Whitepine> No problem. Increase your taxes and buy coal mines, drilling rigs, pipelines, refineries, etc. Write your own oil/gas/coal exploration and development plan. Run them at cost and create a socialist utopia. If you can do it at a “just price,” I am certain we will all follow your lead. Good luck.


What are we talking about...fuel sources or power generation? There is plenty of coal.

LADWP doesn't use tax money. It builds plants and provides power. It doesn't mine coal. However it is using funds from its power sales to subsidize solar cell installations.

It is not my lead you have to follow...it is LADWP's. That's my point...if you see something that works follow the lead....no need to reinvent the wheel.