To: tinkershaw who wrote (73353 ) 5/22/2001 7:37:09 AM From: NightOwl Respond to of 93625 Tinker:But what I think it comes down to is the appellate court deciding exactly what legally amounts to fraud in a case like this, and once decided, whether or not the jury could reasonably have found such facts to support the legal requirements. I suspect that the appellate court already knows what "legally amounts to fraud" in a case like this since the elements of this intentional wrongdoing will be the same in every case arising from this jurisdiction. But I suspect RMBS will use the kitchen sink approach and ask the appellate judges to rule on every conceivable issue that they can raise with a straight face. Quite frankly, and I haven't looked extensively, but from the facts I've seen, and many of them are contradictory, like how can one commit fraud if one's patents don't infringe to begin with (but leave that as it may) there are some serious questions here about whether a legal case for fraud actually existed, or existed in the way the jury was instructed. But I'll get back to you after I've taken the time to dig deeper. I take it from your repeated reference to an alleged "contradiction" (by the Defense of Fraud in the context of an infringement case wherein the Defendant has not been shown to have infringed) that you have yet to "dig" into the Counterclaim's charges of fraud, the elements of Fraud in Virginia, the measure of damages in such Fraud action, the distinction between compensatory and punitive damages awarded in this case, and the minimum proofs required to support an award of "nominal" compensatory damages. I am sure you'll find it all quite "shocking."<vbg> Personally, I have no problem with the long established practice of Civil Courts to allow punitive damages to punish those who fully intend to do harm to their fellow creatures, even though they fail miserably to achieve that end, through no lack of trying. Think of it as the Civil counterpart to the Criminal charge of "Attempted Fraud," because, well,... that's what it is. But I would certainly like to hear the policy rational for giving a pass to those too "incompetent" to achieve the injury and damages they intended to produce. Granted its a little more advanced than "eye for an eye;" but it seems to work quite well. The Court's ruling on the IFX Motion for equitable relief should put some more meat on these concepts if you find the time to look into it when entered. I'll grant you that RMBS will very likely try to carve a new "niche" in this prior legal "art" of allowing the civil punishment of bad actors without regard to their level of success. But I just don't see a "niche" there big enough for them to "proifit" from.<vbg> Frankly, not knowing all the evidence myself, I think RMBS will have an easier time with the Fraud appeal than the Markman appeal. The appellate review will be de novo in name only. The judges on appeal will get to determine all the issues of law and fact as they wish; but the problem for RMBS counsel will be their factual Markman record and the "multiplexed bus" terminology of the claim language itself as Mr. Bilow has ably documented. The only Markman hope they have that I can see is that the Appeals will find error in the way that Judge Payne associated this language with the patents in issue through all the intervening divisionals, etc. But that's a long, long shot as I see it. This case has all the earmarks of the very kind of IP stretching that the appellate court bashed unmercifully in Festo. But you already know that. My assumption of the relative ease with which they could grab the ring on the Fraud appeal took a major hit when the jury came back after only 4.5 hours. Counting the lunch break that's a fairly obvious indication of the clear and convincing nature of the evidence of Fraud submitted by IFX. But even with that I still think they have a better chance to avoid the Fraud verdict than the Markman result. 0|0 P.S. Take your time on those other questions. I am nothing, if not patient.<g>