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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Greg or e who wrote (14161)	5/23/2001 1:59:33 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

"HISTORICITY OF JESUS CHRIST Skeptics! They never cease to amaze me! They have no problem believing that Plato, Aristotle, and Caesar existed, but somehow or other they have the temerity to claim that Jesus Christ of Nazareth never existed. It needs to be clearly understood that Jesus Christ is, in fact, an historical figure. According to the New Testament, Jesus was born in the city of Bethlehem in Judea. He was born during the reign of Caesar Augustus, and He was, of course, put to death by the Roman Governor Pontius Pilote. Each of the 27 books of the New Testament mention Him, and, of course, they refer to Him in a historical context. In fact, most of the New Testament writers actually claim to be eyewitnesses of His life, death, and resurrection. The Apostle John, for example, gave empirical testimony about his encounters with Jesus when he said, "We've heard Him, we have seen Him with our eyes, and we touched Him with our hands..." (1 John 1:1). That, of course, is exactly what we're proclaiming to you. The New Testament Gospels are not legendary, they are straight forward historical accounts of Christs' life. Now, in addition to all of this, the biblical data is attested to by such distinguished Roman and Jewish historians as Josephus, Tacitus, Secundus, and a host of others. All of these historians mention that Jesus was a real person who lived during the first century. Many were also conversant with the basic facts of His life, death, and His claims of His resurrection. Jesus' historical existence is beyond dispute. In fact, the Encyclopedia Britannica commits over 20,000 words to Jesus, and says with respect to His historicity that it wasn't until the end of the 18th Century that it was disputed for the very 1st time - and that on inadequate grounds. Without His physical existence, without His death and resurrection, we have no hope either in this life or the life to come. The whole idea that Christ was a myth is itself a myth." FOR FURTHER INFORMATION For more information on this topic, please consult The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ (College Press) by Gary Habermas (B387/$18.00) and Is the New Testament Reliable? (IVP) by Paul Barnett (B335/$13.00). This resource is available through CRI. For shipping and handling information, please refer to our Resource Listing. To place a credit card order, call toll-free (888) 700-0274. To receive a free copy of our Resource Listing, fax us at (949) 858-6111 or write us with your request at P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688-7000. CRI PERSPECTIVE CP1209 CRI, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688 Phone (949) 858-6100 and Fax (949) 858-6111

To: Greg or e who wrote (14161)	5/23/2001 4:07:41 PM
From: Solon	Respond to of 82486

THE TRUTH ABOUT THIEDE (bolding mine) Greg, if you wish to believe that the gospels were written less than 100 years after the supposed death of Jesus, you will find fundamentalists to "argue" the case for you! bowness.demon.co.uk "Thiede originally proposed his redating of Papyrus 64 in the technical German academic journal Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigrafik 105 (1995) pp. 13-20. A subsequent issue of the same journal (vol. 107 (1995) pp. 73-80) carried an article by Klaus Wachtel of the Institute for New Testament Textual Research in Münster (which is the main registry for these texts) where he successfully demolished Thiede's reasons for redating Papyrus 64 (and by extension Papyrus 67) as 1st. century. An even more devastating piece against Thiede appeared in the same journal in 1996 (issue 113 pp. 153-7) written by H. Vocke. And there the matter should have rested." "The name 'The Jesus Papyrus' for the English edition to describe Papyrus 64 is Thiede's invention. Its usage is pure journalism. The name is intended to dupe the uneducated into believing that this first century dating is not only proven but that, by placing its writing as early as, if not prior to, 70 A.D., the actual scribe could well have been an eyewitness to the events described in Matthew's gospel - the scribe may even have been one of Jesus' apostles! Thiede does not, however, actually go so far as to claim that this scrap is our only surviving portion of the original composition in the handwriting of St. Matthew himself. We must await a sequel before we go that far! In The Jesus Papyrus and in subsequent elaborations in the media Thiede's aims are clearly not merely palaeographical but evangelical. He belongs to those conservatives who wish to date the original composition of the Christian gospels as close to the time of Jesus as possible in order to claim thereby that their witness must be all the more reliable. In the early years of this controversy Thiede courted attention from ultra-conservative Roman Catholics in Germany, but he also attracted support from various evangelical quarters worldwide. The exercise is part and parcel of that tireless and timeless quest for the 'Jesus of History' and the ongoing efforts of certain Christian believers to anchor their faith in the reliability of the canonical gospels as historical sources and as the foundation documents of their faith"