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To: Dan3 who wrote (136855)	6/7/2001 12:01:17 AM
From: tcmay	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 186894

"If AMD starts shipping .13 copper on SOI by the end of the year - quite an if, since I don't quite trust the good Dr. Ruiz at this point - Intel would be screwed." "SOI is worth nearly a half generation which would give AMD the equivalent of a .11 process." Color me somewhat skeptical, for several reasons: * IBM, the new "inventor" of SOI [see comment below], has had SOS and SOI for several years, supposedly. And yet where are the super-fast PPCs? We Mac users would _love_ to have something faster than the 500-733 MHz top-speed PPCs that the IBM/Motorola consortium is delivering. If SOI is so wonderful, where are the SOI PPCs? (maybe all resources are being dedicated to the Blue Lightning chips?) * SOS and SOI (silicon-on-sapphire and silicon-on-insulator, just so we're all on the same page) have been touted as One of the Next Big Things for decades. One of my old bosses at Intel, Murray Woods, worked on RCA's leading-edge SOS program in the mid-70s. And when I first joined Intel in '74, Dave Wanlass (brother of Frank Wanlass, the acknowledged inventor of CMOS), was working on SOI. * SOS and SOI have been pursued for years and years and decades and decades. Perhaps its day will eventually come. Perhaps its day is almost here. But I am not immediately impressed by some claim that, for example, IBM will make SOI versions of the Transmeta and thereby kick Intel's butt. Fact is, we've been hearing about SOI, and GaAs, and JJs, and laser pantography, for decades. Getting all excited about AMD somehow starting to use SOI is probably a bad idea. Ask yourself why IBM is using Xeons and Pentium 4s and so on instead of using their own SOI process for their own PPCs. (I fully expect some hype about IBM using SOI, about rumors of deals to put the Sledgehammer on SOI, and so on. Were I IBM or AMD, I'd probably churn out the same hype. The challenge is to separate the hype, whether about SOI or about Josephson Junctions or about VLIW media processors, from what is really possible and what is really likely.) --Tim May

To: Dan3 who wrote (136855)	6/7/2001 1:31:01 AM
From: Paul Engel	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 186894

Blow Hard Dan - re: "SOI is worth nearly a half generation which would give AMD the equivalent of a .11 process. And at a time when they have already been in the SMP and (back in the) notebook markets for half a year." Got any data to support this claim?

To: Dan3 who wrote (136855)	6/7/2001 12:06:38 PM
From: fingolfen	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 186894

If AMD starts shipping .13 copper on SOI by the end of the year - quite an if, since I don't quite trust the good Dr. Ruiz at this point - Intel would be screwed. Shipping "samples" and shippeing "product" are two completely different things. AMD isn't scheduled to ship "product" on SOI 0.13 micron until 2H 2002 if memory serves. Also, given that their gate lengths for the fast Athlons at this point are already 0.13 micron like (much moreseo than Intel's interestingly enough), it looks as if they're going to need every bit of help they can just to keep up with Intel's 0.13 micron process.... which is due out ramping now.... with samples of two products already shipped... and product due out very soon... As to SOI being worth a half a process generation... I'll believe it when I see it. We all know how notched gates, 1.13 PIIIs, and K6-2 shrinks can sometimes not come off as planned... Understand the K6-2 shrink issue... Understand the 1.13GHz P3 issue... but why are you lumping the notched gate in with that? If Intel's a half generation behind for the next year and a half, it could end up being road kill - really. Oh boy, now you're really stretching it! 1) The process AMD is crowing about isn't due to ship product for 12 months. 2) Intel will be releasing 0.13 micron parts within the next month or so if roadmaps are to be believed... 3) Your assertion that SOI is "worth a half a process generation" is completely unproven... 4) It appears that AMD has already pushed their CD's down to 0.13 micron dimensions just to keep up with the speed of the P4. Given those observations, it looks like AMD is the one who is going to be a half a generation down for at least a year... maybe restoring some level of parity with Intel in the 2H of next year with their 0.13 micron SOI process... which would give them parity for as long as a year when Intel moves over to 0.10 micron... I honestly think Intel will have 0.13 micron out on 300mm (yes, 300mm) before AMD will have 0.13 micron SOI... That's REALLY going to leave AMD out in the cold.