I began: "What is known is that the combination of legal abortion AND contraception dramatically reduces abortions."
You said: "This is not exactly known..."(followed by an explanation of WHY it is not exactly known)
I replied: "I have not seen a contrary example. If you wish to take a contrary opinion, then I would think you would produce an exception to my assertion."
Your present response ("Your response was to my point about not being able to know what people would have done given different circumstances. What sort of contrary example would you wish me to provide on that point") shows me that you are not following the discussion, LOL! I bolded "MY ASSERTION" above to highlight your confusion. You (apparently) believed that I wanted you to give me a contrary example about YOUR explanation of my assertion! Please don't strain yourself farther on this issue.
Legalized abortion might end unwanted pregnancies, but you haven't even made an argument as to how legalized abortion might reduce unwanted pregancies
That is right, I haven't! So why do you keep struggling with it?!! When I QUOTED the material to you, it was given in the form of countries with contraception AND legalized abortion. You got it the way it was presented. In my last post to you I emphasized: "Not once did I say anything about it being caused by legalizing abortion. Apparently you missed that.
You could have as easily said that contraception and global warming (assumeing that it is indeed hapening) have reduced abortion and maternal death and injury
TRy to follow me, Tim. The people that drew up the statistics, in the form I presented them to you, were not interested in global warming. There are a whole range of statistical comparisons that are drawn between countries with contraception and legalized abortions, countries without contraception and withoutlegalized abortions, and so forth. These are categories, Tim. They are a method of separating data. When I present quotes, I present them the way they are. You should not be having a difficulty with this.
You said in the post I am now replying to "the combination of contraception AND legal abortion statistically reduces abortions". You also said it is known, not just a guess on your part.
Again, you are getting yourself bogged down. The research Institutes create the categories, not me.
You provide one relevant point (contraception) and then mention some other condition that exists (legal abortion) and then seem to think that because it exists it must be relevant.
I have said over and over again that I have no basis for assigning relevance. Why don't you listen: "Not once did I say anything about it being caused by legalizing abortion". Why is this not clear to you???
Message 15961674
Ok how about Belarus, Bulgaria, Cuba, Estonia, Ukraine, Romania, Russia, and Vietnam. Those are all countries with legal abortion and abortion rate more then double that of the US as of 1996
Thank you. One would expect to find such diffrences. Did the source of your information have an hypothesis to account for the high rate of abortion in (say) Vietnam??
Russia is an example that clearly shows the value of contraceptives in reducing abortions:
(from Guttmacher)
"Russia's experience presents a stark and contemporary example of a situation where abortion has been legal for a long time, and because modern methods of contraception were unavailable for many years, abortion became the predominant method of controlling fertility for most women. According to the Russian Ministry of Health, the official abortion rate hovered around 109 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age in 1990, with only an estimated 19% of Russian women relying on modern contraceptives. By 1994, however, the health ministry reported that contraceptive use had risen to 24%, while the abortion rate had plummeted to 76 abortions per 1,000 women. Even taking into account the possibility of incomplete reporting, there is no doubt that the number of abortions is on the decline."
Apparently, the overall abortion rate is nearly identical between developed and undeveoped countries (34 per 1000 women vs. 39 per 1000 women). However, the safety difference between legal and illegal abortion is what seems to be most significant as a maternal concern.
from the Guttmacher...
Region Deaths per 100,000 abortions
Developing 330
Africa 680
South & Southeast Asia 283
Latin America 119
Developed .0.2-1.2
Death appears to occur about 500 % more in the developing countries than in the developed. This is associated with the dangers inherent in ilegal abortions.
Joyce Arthur says it well:
"The high rates of death and serious injury associated with unsafe and illegal abortion prove that governments, public health officials, and right-wing religious groups are blind and indifferent to the realities of women's lives. These people continue to believe that laws against abortion will stop abortion, in spite of obvious contrary evidence. The only thing that laws against abortion do is make abortion dangerous, turn most women into criminals, produce millions of disadvantaged children, and create wide disrespect for the law. When it's plain to see that tens of millions of women willingly risk their lives to end an unwanted pregnancy, the hypocrisy of those in power is nothing less than criminal. Much of the blame for this probably rests on the shoulders of more developed nations, who have failed to share enough of their wealth, technology, and experience with the rest of the world.
However, through the United Nations, the world has recently recognized the right of women everywhere to education and reproductive healthcare, the right to participate in the political process, and other important rights. In addition, there is an increasing amount of open discussion and concern about unsafe abortion within the international community. Efforts are being made in many countries to make abortion safer and more accessible even where it is illegal. These are very positive developments. But unfortunately, you won't find any United Nations document that asserts legal abortion as the right of all women everywhere. Safe abortion, yes. But not legal. It seems the world is not quite ready for that yet, even though I don't believe there can ever be such a thing as safe, illegal abortion.
We probably won't be able to change laws against abortion without some kind of universal consensus, like we have on slavery, but I believe we're getting closer and closer to that universal consensus. The day may soon come when women all around the world will have the legal right to decide for themselves when and whether to have children, and the means to exercise that right, safely. And children will have the fundamental right to be wanted, to grow up safe, happy, and healthy. On that day, the world will become truly civilized." |
