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To: rudedog who wrote (138472)7/1/2001 3:05:51 PM
From: Dan3  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 186894
 
Re: - I am putting together a workstation system for video editing - it needs to be big but I don't want to break the bank. 2GB or better RAM, dual processor, AGP4, dual 66/64 PCI, base support on the MB for the usual peripherals.

All you need is a new power supply, about $130 from any of a number of vendors:

queen.pricewatch.com

Two 1.2GHZ AthlonMP chips will save you more than than over two 1.7GHZ P4's - and provide better perormance, at least that's what Anand found.

If you already have two 1GHZ PIII chips, that will certainly be a lower cost solution - and provide better performance than P4s on many applications.

Dan



To: rudedog who wrote (138472)7/1/2001 3:39:20 PM
From: tcmay  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 186894
 
iMovie2 on the Mac works well

(Some of my comments below are explanations of what DV is, how Firewire works, what FinalCut Pro and iMovie are, etc. I'm sure Dan knows about these things. I'm explaining these things for other people's benefit, not to cast any aspersions on Dan's knowledge.)

<<
Dan - I am putting together a workstation system for video editing - it needs to be big but I don't want to break the bank. 2GB or better RAM, dual processor, AGP4, dual 66/64 PCI, base support on the MB for the usual peripherals.

So I can't just hack around with a new MB and stuff I have lying around - I have to buy pretty much everything new. That is enough of a barrier that I went with a PIII design that happens to run with my existing gear - I even have a couple of 1GHz processors. All I need is the MB.
>>

I'll say a few words about the Mac approach. (As an Intel stockholder, and one who respects Intel's prowess, I still use Mac of various sorts. As I have explained, it was an OS decision: the Mac Plus was the most like the WYSIWYG systems I had been using when I left Intel in 1986, so I bought a Mac Plus and have been happy with all of my later generations of Macs. And it's useful for even Wintel-Intel-AMD zealots to see what the competition is able to do.)

First, iMovie was rolled out a few years ago by Apple. It provides excellent video editing capabilites. Free. (They recently started charging $50 for it, for some crazy reason. But the version for OS X, which is what I am using, is available as a free download...perhaps to help generate more OS X interest.) "iMovie 2" is the latest version.

Second, Firewire (IEEE-1394) support is excellent on the Mac. As Dave Budde pointed out in a recent article here, things just work with video editing software and hardware on the Mac. (For you folks not doing any video editing, nearly all DV camcorders have IEEE-1394, or Firewire, built in. Sony has had it for several years, called "iLink" by them, for control and and also for data transfer. Today, all of the DV camcorders from Sony, Sharp, Panasonic, Canon, etc. have 1394 connectors.)

DV, by the way, for you others, is "Digital Video." Stores images at high resolution in digital format. No generational loss as edits are made. Movies made with iMovie or FinalCut Pro or Premiere can be dumped back into DC camcorders, or stored, or whatever.

I don't currently have a DV camcorder or deck, so I bought a "Dazzle DV-Bridge" to convert analog video from my existing camcorders and S-VHS decks into DV form. (I understand from David Pogue's excellent book on iMovie 2 that many DV camcorders also have analog inputs with a conversion of the analog to DV and then a pass-through to the Firewire cable to the computer. The Dazzle unit was $300 and a DV camcorder with analog inputs is around $700, IIRC, so I probably should have gone the DV camcorder route. But I didn't know about these analog inputs and the pass through, and my main concern has been to get my large collection of past videos, 8mm and Hi-8, into iMovie form.)

Hooking up the Dazzle unit was...dazzling. No drivers needed (built into the OS X system). Plugged in the Dazzle to my IEEE-1394/Firewire port, attached an 8mm camcorder, launched iMovie 2, and it all worked *immediately*. A few minues later, I was editing clips. My jaw dropped to the floor.

There are _some_ features that iMovie does not have, but even many pros are using iMovie. For more features, the obvious choice is (according to all reviews I have read) Apple's "FinalCut Pro." This system is used on Macs to edit professionally, competing with vastly more expensive Avid systems.

Lastly, I wonder about your need for "it needs to be big but I don't want to break the bank. 2GB or better RAM, dual processor, AGP4, dual 66/64 PCI..."

Do you think your video editing will be CPU-constrained? Bandwidth to and from the disks seems to be a bigger issue for most practical editing. (Except for a limited number of wipes and fades and distortions, most NLE (non-linear editing) is about digitally splicing various chunks around. Unlike Photoshop-type image manipulation, not a huge amount of pixels need to be loaded into RAM at any given time. And not a lot of CPU power is needed. My 466 MHz G3 is more constrained by disk speed, so far.)

I am going to be completely frank about this recommendation: go down to a Fry's or Microcenter or whatever store is in your area and check out iMovie running on a G3 or G4 Mac. iMovie 2 on OS X on a Titanium G4 laptop will likely amaze you. And if you need more editing functions, FinalCut Pro.

Much work can likely be done on even a $1200 iBook. The support for DV is built-in, through IEEE-1394/Firewire. The iMovie app is free.

Dave Budde can add more details.

There are many things Apple does very well, and integrating multimedia/video is certainly one of them. Tim-Bob sez: "Check it out!"

--Tim May



To: rudedog who wrote (138472)7/1/2001 8:22:07 PM
From: pgerassi  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 186894
 
Dear Rudedog:

Why do you think you need 64/66 PCI? The highest video resolution 720x480 at 24 bits at 30 fps is only 32MB/sec. There are no DV cameras or even analog capture boards above this in resolution unless you are talking HDTV gear. Even with MJPEG (typical for edittable HDTV digital video feeds), HDTV at 1920x1080 at 60 fps is less than 72 MB/sec. This is below the 133 MB/sec of PCI. 64/33 PCI doubles that to 266 MB/sec.

Memory bandwidth is the determinant for most video editting. Each frame is a JPEG image. These are normally strung together to get a finished product. For effects like blending and 3D window insertion, requires each source image to be decoded, all the effects done, and the resulting image encoded back into a JPEG frame. Dual P3s do not work much faster in this type of application over a single one. Much better scaling is a dual Athlon MP. Each CPU has a bigger pipe to memory than the shared bus of a P3.

The power supply used is available for $130. Add in a motherboard ($400), twin 1.2 MPs, twin HSFs, and 4 PC2100 ECC 512 MB DIMMs and you get about $2250. Far less than a dual 1.7 P4 Xeon with 2GB RDRAM, HSFs, MB, and PS. Either will be much faster than your twin P3. Monarch Computers sells a complete system with 1GB of PC2100 ECC dual 1.2 MP plus dual 36GB 10k SCSI160 disk for $3200 in a rackmount case. All you would need then is another pair of 512 PC2100 ECC DIMMs ($600).

Probably a single 1.4 Tbird in a 760 MB with 2 GB of PC2100 ECC DDR would outrun a twin 1G P3 in video editting apps. But given the price difference between 2 1024MB ECC PC2100 and 4 512MB ECC PC2100, you can get the Dual Athlon MP MB with money back going with the later option.

Pete