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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Tom Clarke who wrote (17843)	7/9/2001 11:44:03 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

>Many of them see an intrusive state interfering with their freedom of speech and freedom of association. Why shouldn't students at a high school football game be able to say a prayer before gametime?< ROFL and you don't see it as more intrusive to force people to sit through prayers at a governmental function (the school is an organ of the government unless it is a PRIVATE school- not receiving government money) to a deity they may not believe in? The abstention from sponsoring religion is not the ABSENCE of religion- it is the abstention of the state to sponsor religion, that is all. The government has never stepped in to stop someone from praying privately in the bleachers. What is not allowed is the government sponsored use of religion, by those in power (teachers, coaches, principles)- try, if you can, to imagine a district where satanists run the school district. Do you really want the only prayer said at the football game to be to the Great Satan? I doubt you do- well I consider the Christian God (and many other Gods for that matter) as big an abomination as Satan, and so do lots of other people. So let's keep the shucking and praying a non-governmental matter. In a multi religious society what other course is more fair? Allowing school districts to willy nilly sponsor whatever religion is dominant in their area at the expense of the minority religions certainly doesn't amount to freedom of association. It amounts to coerced worship. Something a freedom lovin' guy like you ought to be really concerned about. But you're not....hmmmmmmmmmm

To: Tom Clarke who wrote (17843)	7/10/2001 8:34:53 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Many of them see an intrusive state interfering with their freedom of speech and freedom of association. I understand that. The feeling must be much like the resentment felt when the Feds forced desegregation. No one likes to have outsiders come in and say that local practices are unacceptable. It's always better if people recognize the need to make changes on their own. My preference would be not to force the issue through the courts. I've always though of the conflict more as a matter of manners than rights, anyway. When we start treating it as a matter of rights, we get that "well what about MY rights" backlash. I went to a public high school in New Jersey and a private, Methodist college in Pennsylvania. No one ever prayed at a football game. I don't think it ever occurred to anyone that prayer went with football. I can't say that we were any worse off for foregoing that prayer. I understand that they pray at football games in Oklahoma. I don't know that anyone is any better off for doing so. It seems to me that prayer and football are a matter of tradition. Some people eat hot dogs with mustard and some with catsup. Nothing more or nothing less. It's just taste and habit. I understand nostalgia about tradition. I was a kid before busing. The best part about school was walking home in the afternoon and stopping at the soda fountain. Or hanging around watching the teams practice. I remember feeling sad at the loss of that tradition when kids stopped going to school in their neighborhoods. I was in my twenties then. I thought they were missing a lot. I'm sure that those who associate prayer and football would feel a sense of something missing. It's sad. Many of them see an intrusive state interfering with their freedom of speech and freedom of association However, I think they should stop doing it. It inculcates in kids the notion that "of course good Americans are Christians." Of course. It's a mindset that doesn't consider that anyone could be of any other religion without them being strange or outsiders -- not one of us. That's not healthy. Sure, in most of middle America, almost everyone either is a Christian or pretends to be. That's why I don't feel a sense of urgency. But if we wait until the Muslims and Buddhists move into Ada, we get a different kind of problem. Either those kids will be treated as outsiders while the Christians pray, or the Christians will have to stop praying and will resent the newcomers for the change rather than the Feds. It's a difficult situation. But sooner or later most of those Oklahoma kids are going to run into people of different religions and they should know not to look down on them as colleagues and neighbors. As for after-school Bible classes, I think they're just fine. I think that most reasonable people would agree with that if they weren't afraid of giving an inch. Karen