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Politics : War -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Thomas M. who wrote (2345)	7/14/2001 3:00:04 AM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23908

I didn't say the writer was Islamic. I said the source was Radio Islam - which it is. I have no idea why the writer wrote what he wrote. But I do know why Radio Islam gave him a forum. I'll tell you who I would find credible. A Protestant or Catholic Biblical professor who is on the tenured faculty of a mainstream university here in the US. I've been looking. I input the search terms "jesus talmud" on google, and am looking for .edu URLs. So far, the only one I've seen was one that was publishing works from the Islamic point of view. Will keep looking for a bit longer - but after I've looked at 200, I'm calling it a night.

To: Thomas M. who wrote (2345)	7/14/2001 3:27:55 AM
From: Ilaine	Respond to of 23908

Now this seems to be a pretty cool guy - Eliezer Segal, teaches at University of Calgary. Why don't you write to him and ask him whether Professor Shahak is telling the truth? acs.ucalgary.ca

To: Thomas M. who wrote (2345)	7/14/2001 3:33:17 AM
From: Ilaine	Respond to of 23908

Here is something from the Nizkor Project: >> In the Adelaide Institute's April 1996 issue, I found the following letter, worthy of sharing with both our friends and foes alike... Since you are so disturbed about "hate propaganda", I enclose details of the Jewish Talmud, which has been distributing hate against the "goyim"... So the Zundel mob has decided to publish lies about the Talmud. The Talmud is not "hate propaganda," but this letter that the Zundelistas find to be so "worthy" is indeed hate propaganda at its worst. ...(itself a hateful term, since it means "human cattle", the Jews only permitting themselves to be fully human). This lie has been exposed innumerable times in this newsgroup. The word, "Goyim," means "nations" in Hebrew and "non-Jews" in Yiddish. It does not, nor has it ever meant "human cattle!" The fact that the author grasps at such straws to "prove" his case only confirms that the Talmud itself has precious little in it worthy of criticism. Furthermore, the Talmud mnever refers to Christians as "goyim" for the simple reason that at that time Christianity was still considered a schismatic sect of Judaism! All references to "Goyim" in the Talmud are references to local idolators, or to the occupying Roman forces. I draw your attention, for example, to the hate mongering and blasphemous reference to Christ as the illegitimate son of a liaison of intercourse between His mother, Mary, and Pandira, a Roman soldier. Christ is also called a "fool" who "corrupts his morals and dishonours himelf" and "died like a beast and is buried in an animal's dirt heap". As the Talmud never uses the words, "Christ," or "Jesus," these references are particularly specious. What it amounts to is speculation that these passages refer to Christ, as scholars, both Jewish and Christian, will attest. The "died like a beast" reference is interesting in that it was a given of Jewish theology that God protects his saints from harm at the hands of idolators. The early Christians themselves were embarassed by the manner of Jesus' death, as it was taught that a violent death such as his would never be visited upon a true saint. Hateful references to Christians as "idolaters",... This is truly ignorant. The Talmud refers to idolators and the Zundelistas read this to be a reference to Christians! In fact, the Talmud never even uses the word, "Christian." The Talmud does refer to "heretics" but scholars will attest that this can refer to either Gnostics or Christians or both, and it is never clear-cut which group is meant in any particular passage. But neither group is identified as idolatrous. ...Christians "have sex with animals",... Not Christians -- idolators! ...Jews are "innocent of murder if intended to kill a Christian". An outright lie. It does not even apply to idolators. This is of course an incitement to murder. Christians idoleters likened to cows and asses;... Once again, Christians are not identified with idolators. ...Christians are like unclean beasts; non-Jews' souls go straight to hell. Jews can lie and perjure to condemn a Christian; name of God not profaned when lying to Christians; and Jews can perjure themselves with a clear conscience. The last is, of course, an incitement to lie and cheat. Wrong again. Jews are not permitted to lie even to an idolator. The Zundelistas end their litany of lies with this pithy semtiment: Thought for the Day: "Rather perish than hate and fear, and twice rather perish than make oneself hated and feared." (Friedrich Nietzsche) A noble philosophy. Too bad the Zundelistas do not adhere to it, instead of hypocritically giving it lip service. Spreading lies and distortions about the Talmud is guaranteed to make the Zundelistas "hated and feared." Neitzche himself condemned the German people of his time who allowed themselves to be deceived by anti-Semites and Jew-haters. -- Harry Katz Ignorance and conceit go hand in hand. -- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.<< veritas.nizkor.org