To: Gordon A. Langston who wrote (4974 ) 7/16/2001 3:19:23 AM From: jttmab Respond to of 93284 I see two different thoughts being presented. If state constitutions looked to orignal intent (and I think they did) then they are important to the Supreme Court in interpreting the Constitution. I imagine that they did consider original intent. But isn't it the considerations that are the aid; not the State Constitutions? I believe it is within their perogative to afford their citizens more rights than the US Constitution provides. The requirement is that they must not conflict. Hypothetically, a State may have considered the 2nd amendment and concluded that it's a collective right and not an individual one. Perhaps they then decided that, in their view the 2nd was insufficient and wrote the States Constitution to include an individual right. It is within their perogative to do so, and it does not conflict with the 2nd. The other alternative is that they concluded the 2nd was an individual right. But isn't it the consideration that's more the aid and not the State Constitution? In either case, the Court could consider it, the aid, and conclude: What a bunch of bozos!Here's a discussion of the mis-citation of Miller. It was a case appealed by the federal side, so any claims that there has been no dispute about the individual/group aspect is obviously false. I didn't know that there was any such claim. I'll have to read the link more carefully. But it looks like a nice treatment of the subject. One brief question though. It appears that the lower court decisions, post Miller, are still standing. Which is a nice thing I suppose. Unsatisfying, but nice. I don't have much of a quibble with claims that the lower Courts have mis-interpreted Miller and that the standing decisions may be wrong. A fact that the case hasn't been appealed could be an indication, indirectly, that the decision has weight. Still not satisfying though. But if the decision has been appealed to the USSC and the USSC has refused to hear the case, leaving the decision of the lower Court standing. I think that does add weight to the argument that the Court views the lower Court's decision to be correct, i.e., it was not a mis-interpretation. But I've never been able to find a source to determine whether a case has been appealed to the Court in those cases where the Court has declined to hear them. Is their a source, on the web, that covers that? LII can "tell" me as they occur, but nothing historical is available that I know of.I also believe while a shotgun or handgun is adequate for personal defense against crime, other weapons are in order as regards tyranny, however unpleasant the thought may be. Thus I look at an M-16 or AK-47 as a tool fit for a specific purpose and not a "murderous object". It's probably unpleasant to many people that the KKK has first amendment rights also. But, what the heck, the Framers never threw in a clause precluding unpleasant . But free speech, is not without limits. What are the limits on arms? AK-47s, grenade launchers, tanks, F-16s, chemical weapons? There can never be a clear line. But what's the fuzzy line? Is there a fuzzy line. The only reason I ever post on public threads on this subject, i.e., Constitution not the 2nd, is in the hopes of finding someone that might be able to answer a few of the many questions that I have. It only took three years to find someone. I have more than a hunch that there would be great appreciation on the part of the thread if we were to take further discussion of the topic to PM. Cheers, jttmab