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To: muzosi who wrote (140847)	8/4/2001 1:09:16 PM
From: Elmer	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 186894

iow, you have no clue why they won't be able to go below the current gate size when they go to a 130 nm process but you have a lot of rhetorical bs. I told you I'm not a process expert but I'm far from clueless on the subject. I have a pretty good idea why but unlike you I chose to leave the detailed explanations to experts. Why not address the issues instead of insults? The facts remain, AMD is falling farther and farther behind and they've pulled out all the rabbits that old hat will hold. EP

To: muzosi who wrote (140847)	8/4/2001 6:31:59 PM
From: semiconeng	Respond to of 186894

iow, you have no clue why they won't be able to go below the current gate size when they go to a 130 nm process but you have a lot of rhetorical bs Just because Elmer doesn't know, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. 250nm Steppers can be used to make 0.13u level gate sizes, in the same way that intel is using their 250nm Steppers on their 0.13u process. It's called Phase Shift Masks. But as Elmer said, their's more to a true 0.13u Process than Litho. It's the reason that intel's 0.13u Ramp is not being impacted by the 193nm Stepper delay. They had planned to use the 193nm SVGL Steppers, but when that fell through, they probably had their IMO division make up the Phase Shift Masks that they needed. intel was not using Phase Shift Masks at 0.18u, because although it doesn't seem to impact yields, the Masks are more expensive, and the technique reduces throughput. You don't get the high volume that intel needed. AMD, at lower market share didn't need the high throughput. They have all the capacity they need from 1 Fab (remember?) To compensate for the lower throughput intel would get on the 0.13u process, until the 193nm Steppers do show up, intel probably accelerated the conversion of their Oregon D1B Fab, and speeded up the installation of the equipment in Fab22. Why can't you use Phase Shift with 193nm Steppers to make smaller gate sizes? Maybe you can. I'm Etch, but the Litho people I know say that at 193nm, Phase Shift "Doesn't Work Very Well". I don't know what that means, and probably the Litho people don't understand why either, but I know that right now, 193nm Phase Shifting doesn't seem to be an encouraging topic with the Litho People I know. Maybe the future will be different. Semi