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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Poet who wrote (22873)	8/18/2001 9:03:54 AM
From: jlallen	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

What a load of crap! Noble Poet... LOL!! You disgust me completely. You're so deluded you even lie to yourself. Liar, hypocrite and defamer. Nice qualities for a left wing, wing nut. You fit the bill. JLA

To: Poet who wrote (22873)	8/18/2001 12:09:15 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Poet, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I was hoping some others might respond, as well. I guess no one is feeling philosophical this morning. It's still morning as I start this response, but it may be evening before I get through all your points... I just had a PM from YYB, who looked in on the thread last night and was pretty disgusted with what the thread has become. She has stopped by a couple of times and expressed that, leaving a trail of debris behind her. <g> I am always deferential to her when we see her because she did start the thread, and to you, as well, because you were party to it. It's morphed into something very different, and, in my opinion, darker. There is a lot of water over the dam or under the bridge since this thread was started. We are over twenty thousand posts, now. I would call that a success. We have, indeed, evolved from the original premise, but that doesn't mean the thread is worse, just different. It may no longer suit its original purpose. I have been here for every single post (although I admit I don't read all the long ones full of scripture). I do not see this darkness you speak of. I do, however, see why YYB finds it boring, which was her chief complaint, as I recall, on her last visit. It seems to me that YYB likes a good scrap and that you do, too. We try to avoid that sort of thing. I admit that folks around here can be easily provoked to a fight, but I think that decorum is the default tenor. I find sunshine in that, not darkness. If you just visit every once in a while, you might easily miss the sunshine. End of part 1.

To: Poet who wrote (22873)	8/18/2001 12:40:41 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 82486

I got very angry at how Win was being treated and how (I felt) some very important lines were crossed WRT X. I understand that. I thought they were treated badly, too. It didn't make me angry, though, because I have a different perspective on it. I am simply used to it. You may not approve of that, but it is what it is. Win and JLA have had this thing going forever. One shows up and the other one is right behind. Each accuses the other of not saying anything substantive. It's always the same. It is rare that either of them makes a substantive contribution to whatever discussion is going on around their little pas de deux, which goes on well below my radar level. I understand why you react to seeing your friend treated badly. We don't have the same experience with this particular phenomenon. Another aspect of this is the friendship thing. You respond out of friendship, which may be personal or may be because you share a "side." I respond out of principle. It matters less to me whether the offender or the person wronged is my friend or compatriot. Mostly, I avoid taking sides in personal disputes. When I judge the situation, I focus on the merits, less on the relationship I have with the parties. I'm sure you find that quite alien or perhaps even wrong, but it is simply who I am. If we all line up on sides and hurl insults at each other, the venue becomes unsuitable for open discussion of issues, which is why I am here. Regarding the treatment of X, I think I have already covered that in previous posts. End of part 2.

To: Poet who wrote (22873)	8/18/2001 1:26:57 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

I have to admit that I felt "pumped" by the hours I spent insulting others and I can now understand, to some degree, why some people repeatedly engage in that kind of behavior. I'm glad you chose to comment on that. I've occasionally tried to get discussions going on that subject, with no success. I sometimes send PM's to people who regularly do it and who I think won't be offended by my question asking them about their motivations. It's interesting to hear of your newfound perspective. It's the cyber version of cigarettes, except instead of polluting one's own lungs, invective pollutes the world one little bit at a time. Yes, invective pollutes the world one little bit at a time. I'd like to repeat that over and over for a whole post. I think you put it very well. That's why I simply won't engage in it. No point that I might have to make about anything is so important that I'm willing to risk that pollution. Not defending gays, not anything. Not even defending atheists and agnostics. <g> If we pollute our world with invective, it won't be very hospitable to gays or anyone else. It won't even be suitable for discussions, enlightened or otherwise, about the issue. I spoke to brees yesterday about Pyrric victories. So you may win one battle regarding AJ as his use of the word, "queer." At the risk of losing the war for civility? No way. You might consider a poem on the subject of invective pollution... End of part 3, end of response. Thank you again for giving me something to which to respond. Karen

To: Poet who wrote (22873)	8/18/2001 1:34:20 PM
From: The Philosopher	Respond to of 82486

I have to admit that I felt "pumped" by the hours I spent insulting others and I can now understand, to some degree, why some people repeatedly engage in that kind of behavior. It's the cyber version of cigarettes, What a great self-insight! Maybe you also got a taste of how in the middle of a flame war things can sort of go further than you planned and you would say things you wouldn't have said if you were writing a separate, carefully thought out post. Being here on the West coast is a bit unfair, because you all get a three hour start on me posting in the morning. One thing to be aware of, Karen, if you do come out to Victoria. You'll need to adjust and realize that it's much harder to post to people in "real time" when your schedule is three hours off from theirs. A problem SR has in spades.