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Technology Stocks : Advanced Micro Devices - Moderated (AMD) -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: wanna_bmw who wrote (51709)	8/20/2001 12:54:39 AM
From: Dan3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 275872

Re: You're exaggerating again. The fastest Pentium 4 CPUs do not dissipate that much more than the fastest Athlon chips, except that Intel arguably includes the better cooling solution. My post used the term slightly. AMD has two case temperature options (listed on page 83 of the PDF) S=95 degrees centigrade and T=90 degress centigrade allowable. Intel has limits from 69 degrees to 78 degrees in the pdf you made a reference to. If I was wrong about anything, it was my use of "slightly" less tolerant when referring to Intel's chips - they are a lot less tolerant according to your post. But I think you're comparing desktop P4s to mobile Athlons - the mobile P4s will probably be close to the Athlon's in heat tolerance, hence my use of the term "slightly." And what is this stuff you keep posting about Intel "including the better cooling solution?" Intel doesn't include anything - they just point out that their fussy chips need giant heat sinks. It continues to be up to the OEM to provide the cooling solution.

To: wanna_bmw who wrote (51709)	8/20/2001 1:20:11 AM
From: Mani1	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 275872

wanna_bmw, your post has several errors in it. Re <<except that Intel arguably includes the better cooling solution.>> Intel does not provide any cooling solution to tier one OEM's. Tier one OEM's design their own cooling solution based on the spec that AMD and Intel provide. Now for the boxed retail version, perhaps you can state your reason as to why Intel's solution is better. I would be very interested to hear your reasoning. Re <<In terms of tolerance, you cannot compare the Tcase values in the Pentium 4 spec with the Tjunction temperatures in the Athlon spec.>> Wrong, as far as the thermal solution is concerned, they are IDENTICAL spec. AMD's spec calls for the "maximum die temperature" of 95 degrees Celsius. On the T-bird package, the die is "exposed...to facilitate heat transfer from the die to an approved heat sink. You can get that info from page 39 of this link. amd.com That means if you do the thermal circuit for the entire package, for AMD's TBirds, the temperature right before the finned heat sink can not exceed 95 degrees. Intel's spec sheet calls for "max case temperature" of 78 degrees for the 1.8 GHz model. By case temperature Intel means the temperature of the heat slug attached to the die (Intel calls this “integrated heat spreader”). You can see that at page 73 of this link: developer.intel.com In Intel’s package, this is what is exposed to the finned heat sink. Intel has chosen to have this extra layer of mechanical protection, which is a thermal liability. This means, for Intel’s P4, the temperature right before the finned heat sink can not exceed 78 degrees Celsius. Intel's spec sheet calls for "max case temperature" of 78 degrees for the 1.8 GHz model. AMD's spec calls for "max die temperature" of 95 degrees. That is the difference of 17 degrees and as I explained they mean the same thing for an OEM’s who is designing the “level two” thermal solution. Level two means the solution from the package (max temp defined by the manufacturer) to the air inside the computer case. In case you are wondering how much of thermal liability is the heat slug is for Intel, the answer is not much. It is at most 0.03 C/W, that means for the worse case scenario of 1.8 GHz, 67 Watt power, it is only 2 degrees Celsius. It is even less of a thermal liability for other speed grades. AMD's die can simply handle a lot higher temperature than Intel can. Why? I don't know. AMD’s package is by far easier to cool for a desktop and that is well known by anyone who has worked in the industry. For notebook be a different story because the level 3 cooling (from air inside the case to the ambient) is an issue and due to the high total power , that is AMD’s weak point. But of course, that has been addressed with the Athlon 4, the palomino. Mani

To: wanna_bmw who wrote (51709)	8/20/2001 12:34:58 PM
From: Ali Chen	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 275872

wanna-bmw, "You're exaggerating again. The fastest Pentium 4 CPUs do not dissipate that much more than the fastest Athlon chips" You are confused again. You are confusing thermal management tricks with actual power consumption of the two processors. The thermal guidance is one thingy: you can turn a processor off for any duty cycle and claim any "thermal power" design rules. But the platform has to provide a rock-solid power supply for a processor to ever work, and this official power requirements are as follows: Intel P4 at 1400MHz uses 42.2A, see p.19 ftp://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/designex/29824503.pdf AMD Athlon model 4 processor uses 42.0A at 1400MHz, p.27 amd.com Therefore, AMD supporters have full bragging rights to claim that Athlon uses _LESS_ power than equivalently clocked P4. Formally by 200mA only, but is not it the rule of those number games anyway? Prosperous gambling, - Ali