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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jorj X Mckie who wrote (24114)	8/22/2001 8:56:46 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

The religious vs anti-religious bias was something kholt introduced. I haven't seen that in any of the other comments by posters. I would flatly put you as a PMP but there is a strong tendency here to go along with political groupies no matter what the discussion is. I don't see any of your self description camping you with the OPs.

To: Jorj X Mckie who wrote (24114)	8/22/2001 9:26:33 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

(and I know that you are trying to figure out where the grub is...) Jorj, that was the first thing I thought of when I saw your name pop up. The absence of an imminent grub was part of my shock at seeing you. The real discerning factor for me would be whether or not the values are consistently applied not how they are derived. Well, yeah, one would think. We've had lots and lots of discussions on this thread regarding absolute values. I have continued to argue that it shouldn't matter whether rights and values and truth and principles and all that good stuff are fixed over time and space or whether humans work together to decide what they consider right. But the thought that there might be any fluidity or human determination of what is right seems to be critical to some. I don't presume to be able to relate to it. I just express it the way I understand it. You used the word, absolute. Maybe that qualifies you as an honorary PMP, or a sweet and cuddly OP, like me. <g> Karen

To: Jorj X Mckie who wrote (24114)	8/23/2001 2:13:48 AM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Hi Jorj Why does the origin of the values make a difference? I believe that my values are as absolute as the described PMPs. And I know many people who derive their values from religious beliefs who have similar values to mine (my wife being a prime example). The origin of particular values makes a difference because, if they are not rooted in some fixed and absolute standard, then they are merely conventions, that can and will change, depending on the whims and fancies of each particular person or generation. This is I believe, the position of a Moral Relativist. It's an easy theory, but it is impossible to live without logical contradiction at a rudimentary level. That is to say, you can't pick and choose which principals you will hold others to, while allowing that nothing is absolutely wrong. Actually you can't even state the position without logically contradicting yourself. If Moral Relativism is true, then the statement, "nothing is absolutely wrong" is also relative, and it cannot be applied, as it commonly is, to all morality. If it is false then we need not concern ourselves with it. Either way it is self contradicting or irrelevant. Now you say your own values are "as absolute as the described PMPs." . Would you care to explain why that is so if God does not exist, and all that does exist, is a material universe that is unplanned, and has no purpose except for that which we give it?