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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Mitch Blevins who wrote (7878)	9/9/2001 10:28:17 AM
From: TigerPaw	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

But, if we add a little randomness into the mix, then we can trace every event back causally to either another caused event or to a random event. We can only trace backwards, because the past is determined. It seems that everything is cause and effect when you look upon history or memory because by the time it actually happens that is the result. Having randomness in the future is necessary but not sufficient for free will. We could be fated to push randomly forward in time with no actual control over our actions. I think the additional necessary ingredient for free will is self awareness. Free will requires a feedback mechanism to examine past events and make a conscience effort to modify the future. That first of all requires a conscience. Conscience can be present in varying degrees from simple approach/avoidance behavior to great thinkers and planners. All these levels lead to free will, but at one extreme the will is so weak as to be hardly recognizable and at the other extreme are clear indications of future altering behavior. TP

To: Mitch Blevins who wrote (7878)	9/10/2001 9:00:33 AM
From: E. Charters	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

Free will in a determined world is like being a willing rider of a roller coaster. In addition with each turn, rise and fall, one says, "I think I will do (what is coming)". You seem to choose it, but in fact the reason you do is that the choice is made or influenced by the path you travel. No matter how much free will you think you have, it may be that whatever happens is also ordained. In other words you are given the will to choose what will happen. This would imply that a state of relaxation would be the best mental state to achieve. Anxiety is simply not necessary, but it may be ordained. You cannot choose but to go forward in time. There are limited choices to make for action. Most will have predictably bad results that do not fit a narrow pattern. They are well imprinted by repetitive trial and error over time. If one argues for free will and ordination then one has to argue that ordination can effect the choices we make by influencing the environment. (A massive rigging of the choice mechanism that is rather complex and hard to fathom. The systematic nature to events or phenomena is therefore an illusion.) This would imply that the ordinator has no need for the future or time, and that there is no experimental nature to the universe. In fact the ordinator in effect lives in the future, not in the present or past. This might explain why no evidence of his existence is seen. He is simply not there nor has be been. He will be. The illusion is that most life forms have a basic wiring that makes them programmed to take paths that differ according to the environment. The have autonomic or automatic functions and predispositions to certain action due to their make up but can also evaluate and act according to perception of stimuli. Fish swim and seek food. It seems to happen according to circumstance. Circumstance seems to be distributed in a fashion that is chance-like according at least to our perception. So if we accept that the math of distribution of phenomena is correct, and that the influences and stimuli of our environment are random, then our choices from them are also seeking a path that is somewhat random or at least as varying as the given complexity of the programming, stimuli and needs of the organism.(programming again.) So in effect, a random choice path is given by a random environment, not so much free will. If a random world exists though, we must have the ability to make choices, otherwise we would be the only determined part of it. In being determined in randomness, we get the appearance of varying by the determined choices meeting differing patterns of stimuli. I cannot see randomeness in the world and ourselves being determined. We also must see that if the world is systematized then, its randomess is limited to an inconsequential part of variance. In other words law does not vary, just instances. I do not see that instance variations is that hard to fathom or that religion can or must reject it. It seems all to humanity as it is the "spice of life". But we are made of such sameness it is as the Blevin says, boring. There we have it. Randomness is the spice of life. If all is determined and we have any settling with the deity when we pass, then he cannot ask us for what reason we did this or that. We can ask, was all determined? If he says "yes". Then we can answer, "well what choice did I have"? EC<:-}