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Politics : War -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Mani1 who wrote (3262)	9/9/2001 9:45:13 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23908

re: It really bothers me when I read the comments on this thread and realize how most of us have lost the big picture. We are differentiating ourselves based on BS reason to the point of dehumanizing other religion or races. And we are justifying our action on what happened decades or centuries ago. And worse yet, we are teaching our hateful practices to our children so the killing can continue. Why do I get the feeling you take in only the Israelis with these remarks? Why have I never heard you say a word against Arafat's summer camps where he teaches 10 year olds the glories of martyrdom? Or the fact that not one Arab leader or intellectual can be found to say that blowing up little kids in a pizzaria is a crime? Or the fact that a song called "I Hate the Jews" was top of the charts in Cairo for weeks and weeks? Or the fact that the worst of Nazi Anti-Semitism is popular reading in Damascus and Cairo? Israelis would gladly indulge in a lot less of this "BS" if they had neighbors who would accept peaceful coexistence. Where they have found such neighbors -- Egypt and Jordan -- there has been peace.

To: Mani1 who wrote (3262)	9/9/2001 11:34:02 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 23908

Probably the most realistic post I've seen you make yet. Indeed, the world is "more fair" than it was 2000 years ago. In fact, it's more fair than it was a mere 50 years ago. And this is no where MORE evident in the Mid-East, where EVERY nation, including you own Iran, was carved from former empires, most significantly the Ottoman Turks. Why the Palestinians, or other Arab nations believe they have the sole right to the spoils of the defeat of the Ottoman Turks has always been beyond my comprehension. The Jews greatly aided in their defeat also, and thus deserved their own little "homeland" just as much as the Sauds did. They also, in stark contrast to most of the Arab world, were strongly opposed to Hitler's Germany as well as British rule. Yet, the Arabs were granted HUGE geographical territories, including Jordan which was traditionally inhabited by Palestinians. Jordan conquered the West Bank in 1948 and annexed it as part of their state, something Israel has NEVER done (despite the expressed desire to do so by some Israelis). I certainly don't agree with every action taken by the Israelis. And I don't believe the attack on the USS Liberty was an "accident". But I have to look events occurring today, and not dwell in the past. We can't change the past, but we can change the course of the future. People are people... generally wishing only to "get along" and raise their children to grow up in a world better than they endured. That's the one desire that everyone shares. And it's not going to be accomplished by one group of individuals constantly threatening to throw the other back into the sea. Hawkmoon

To: Mani1 who wrote (3262)	9/10/2001 12:49:29 AM
From: LV	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23908

<<If Jews are entitled to their own country because they have been target of hatred and atrocities, then why shouldn't every body else?>> If members of a minority are being threatened with physical destruction then they have a moral right to take whatever measures they deem necessary to assure their physical safety. That is exactly the situation the Jews found themselves in. And why should Iranians have a state of their own and some others should not? At one time Iran was divided into Russian and British sections. Do you think it should have stayed that way? Why shouldn’t have the Iranians in the North been content being part of Russian empire and the Iranians in the South - being British subjects? What makes Iranians different from, say, Kurds? Is it because in your opinion Turks, Arabs and Iranians are better rulers than Russians and British? <<We are differentiating ourselves based on BS reason to the point of dehumanizing other religion or races. And we are justifying our action on what happened decades or centuries ago.>> First, I want to say that decent people don’t dehumanize others. Second, I agree that past does not justify our actions, only the present. Past may help explain, but it does not justify. In this spirit I wish the Palestinians would stop looking at the past and start looking to the future.

To: Mani1 who wrote (3262)	9/10/2001 5:44:00 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23908

See, that is just it. If Jews are entitled to their own country because they have been target of hatred and atrocities, then why shouldn't every body else? To an extent you could say they are entitled to their own country because they have their own country. Your line of argument might have been interesting or useful in 1940 or earlier but its moot now. Israel exists. I can't think of a good moral or practical reason to destroy it and even if one could be thought up the Israeli armed forces might have a thing or two to say about that. It really bothers me when I read the comments on this thread and realize how most of us have lost the big picture. We are differentiating ourselves based on BS reason to the point of dehumanizing other religion or races. And we are justifying our action on what happened decades or centuries ago. And worse yet, we are teaching our hateful practices to our children so the killing can continue. I don't think most of the people on this thread are dehumanizing others let alone teaching hatred and killing to their children. Unfortunately if you are trying to describe the situation in the Middle East then you are probably correct. Tim