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Politics : War -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (3551)	9/12/2001 8:51:01 PM
From: Carolyn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23908

I too think a lot of the terrorism and verbal bombast is to maintain the status quo. These freaks are on their way out, as they should be; may they go up in a huge bonfire, slathered with pork.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (3551)	9/12/2001 9:16:07 PM
From: Thomas M.	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23908

But I thought it important to make the point that some folks like Chomsky like to wallow in the minutiae and emphasize conspiratorial influences that may only be a "bit part" player in a grander process. On the topic of East Timor, which was what I posted on, Chomsky sticks entirely to the major facts. Here are the major facts: - Indonesia slaughtered 200,000 East Timorese, more than a quarter of the territory’s people, making it one of the greatest bloodlettings in modern history compared to total population. - Since 1975, the United States has sold Jakarta over $1 billion worth of military equipment. - Ninety percent of the weaponry used by the Indonesian forces in their invasion was from the United States (despite a U.S. law that bans the use of its military aid for offensive purposes) and the flow of arms, including counterinsurgency equipment, was secretly increased. - In the United Nations, U.S. ambassador Daniel Patrick Moynihan successfully worked, as he boasted in his memoirs, to make sure that the international organization was ineffective in challenging Jakarta’s aggression. If these 200,000 lives are "minutiae" to you, well, that speaks for itself. Tom

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (3551)	9/13/2001 3:54:53 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23908

First, I find it funny that you dare lecture Thomas and others about the virtue of "positive" propaganda, the need to unite in the forthcoming "Grand Cultural Clash" etc. I mean, you told me: "Gustave.. I could care less exactly "who" committed the crime..." () () Message 16337214 I think that, from now on, you should make your above statement the header of all your subsequent posts... for it shows your "Clintonesque" mindset: let's just bomb bin Laden for the outrageous bombings of US embassies --NO MATTER who really committed them... Now, as a sweetener, I'll say that I fully agree with the slightly edited opinion of yours: This is a cultural war that is being waged. A war between the forces of reactionarism and authoritarianism, and those of progress, moderation, and individual human liberties. Europe knows that the US represents an inexorable cultural force that will undermine their antiquated social structures and religious dogma, just as it has undermined the past power of the Catholic church over its adherents. And this war has been thrust upon us and we have to decide if we're up to the task, or whether we're going to just put a "band-aid" on it until the sore festers again. The US played a MAJOR role in eliminating the old imperialist colonial power structure that had been imposed by Europe around the world. And we're changing the rest of the world with our views of inalienable human rights and governments elected and empowered by their own people, as well as our beliefs in free trade that create the economic ties that make open conflict politically unthinkable. And this is what certain groups like these European fundamentalists fear... They know they are anachronisms and that they must fight now, or be completely subjugated to the forces of progress. See how it nicely fits your ideological bill?? It's really weird what a change a few days make.... I mean, last week, for most of Europe's political leaders, pundits, and even public opinion, the US was the Great Satan of crass materialism... Neo-Luddite McDonald's-basher Jose Bove was our new European Hero... Despite the frantic lobbying by Bilderberg, the EU scrapped the GE-Honeywell merger, and moved on to snoop into Microsoft. As regards the Middle East, European leaders overtly blamed the US's hands-off policy. All in all, there clearly was bad blood between Europe and the US. Now, tell me, what would it take to patch things up between our two former Cold War buddies? How to jazz it up again between Uncle Sam and Ol'Ma Europe, eh? You tell me... but I can tell you, since September 11th, as all European politicos are now boasting it, "We Europeans are all Americans". Indeed, such an empathetic utterance would have been unthinkable, even in your wildest Transatlantic dream, only four days ago... However, times have changed, Hawk, the Clinton-Bilderberg era is over... As you brilliantly put it, the dark forces of obscurantism will have to comply with a global level-playing field... Colonialism is over, geopolitical gerrymandering (in Africa) doesn't work... And Israel's obsession to rule over East Jerusalem must be balanced against the US's overriding interest in keeping the Middle East stable. Anyway, I did clue you in, didn't I? Message 15687800 Gus