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To: Zeev Hed who wrote (52198)	9/15/2001 12:27:16 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Respond to of 70976

Zeev, thanks for reminding me. Turkey was the other member of CENTO, and as you have pointed out, with long standing ties to the US. So how stable is it? The most popular party in Turkey is the Islamic one (I think they are called the Social Islamic party or something like that). Turkey has initiated draconian ways of combating them. The measures went so far that they outlawed the women's right to wear head scarf as a show of support for the Islamic movement. So just as brute force is used in Iran to force women into Islamic headgear, it is used in Turkey to keep women out of it. Is it any wonder that violence begets violence? Like you, I despise Islamic fundamentalism. But I do not see the rise of this terrible movement as the cause, rather I see its popularity as a symptom of the plights of those people. Remove the roots, and you have a lasting solution. So what are these roots? By and large they are lack of freedom, poverty, and of course corrupt governments. I am sure you are aware that Islam has an extensive set of mandates for helping the poor. Islam has a fairly socialistic tone to it. For the millions of the poor people, the Islamic foundations are the only source of relief. It is predominantly this charitable network (and of course one's religious beliefs) that is the source of popularity of Islamic movements. For example, Osama bin Ladin started out by building homes for the Afghan refugees and feeding the hungry in the middle of the war. It should not come as a surprise that to them he is the angel of mercy. That we combated all socialist movements regardless of their ties to the Soviet Block, is another reason why Islamic movements are so popular; it is the only socialistic choice in those countries. However, an Islamic movement with emphasis on socialist agenda does not have to be either militant or antiAmerican. The reason they fall victim to such anger and hatred is that US supports the corrupt governments of the region. The associative property of "I am against this government and US is keeping it in place" leads to "I am against the US". That these governments use heavy handed methods to keep the opposition silent, gets interpreted as "their order came from Washington to kill the people". For the most parts the State department is not in favor of these heavy handed and brutal methods. But so long as they artificially keep these governments in power, their sentiment does not matter. The few who are motivated by hate and anger, use the circumstances to redirect what is really an independent social reform movement towards terrorism. regards, Sun Tzu PS For years Turkey has been fighting the Kurds in the south east. They do not even acknowledge the existence of Kurds as an ethnicity and refer to them as "mountain Turks". At the last estimate, they had lost 50,000 people to the Kurdish rebels. PPS I think you are right about Morocco. My friend told me that people there wept for the Americans. Then again, US has mostly had no interest in Morocco.

To: Zeev Hed who wrote (52198)	9/15/2001 3:35:19 PM
From: michael97123	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

Zeev, Another point regarding Israel. When they lose 20 folks in a disco bombing folks commentators often say that if you compare populations it would be the equivalent of the US losing 1000 folks. We lost 5000 in the WTC attack, the equivalent of 100 Israelis.So those who expect Israelis to hug Arafat when it is clear that his goal still is to drive the Jews into the sea are naive to say the least. Bush's anti terrorism includes Hamas and Hezbollah. Arafat has a stark choice which is to ultimately give them up or have the Palestinian entity declared an enemy of the free world. Last chance for the Arabs if in fact Bush means business. Mike