This is an interesting post.........
To:Wolf K who wrote (7680)
From: Richard Bunker Monday, Sep 17, 2001 11:47 AM
Respond to of 7706
My thoughts on terrorism and culture war (in progress)
I write this just six days after terrorists hijacked four airplanes full of civilians and gasoline, and flew them into the Pentagon, the civilian World Trade Center office buildings in New York, and (seemingly due to the heroic action of some passengers) crashed one in a field in rural Pennsylvania.
There was as far as I can tell no warning, no declaration of war, no goals or sense to these attacks. Nobody has had the courage to claim responsibility for the attacks. At this moment it seems clear that the US will respond with steely determination, great violence and perseverance, and endeavor to remove the scourge of such terror from the world. I don't think the terrorists have any idea what a Pandora's box they have blasted open.
I have a great variety of thoughts and feelings about these attacks, and about the reactions people have had to them. Perhaps in the coming days I will revisit this stream-of-consciousness exposition of my reaction to these events, and replace it with something more structured, something with more perspective, something more organized, pithy, focused and intentional about the points I want to make. But for now this will just be what comes to mind, in the order that it does so. Here is what I think and feel:
I am overwhelmed with sadness for the fallen, and for their families
The terrorists took from their victims all that they have ever been, and all that they will ever be. They left untold thousands of husbands and wives bereft of their spouse. They stole a parent or parents from thousands of children. They ended the hopes of entire families to have subsequent generations. They killed off family names, hopes, dreams and futures. They have left parents and grandparents grieving to see their children and grandchildren predecease them. They destroyed the lives and families of hundreds of Samaritans who rushed into the burning skyscrapers trying to save others. Many won't even have a body to bury. They will never have a chance to say 'goodbye,' and many will never recover from this blow. I am overwhelmed with sadness for the fallen, and for their families.
This is a culture war, not an economic war
Most of the so-called 'conventional' wars in the history of western civilization were wars of economic conquest. Germans or Italians or French or Romans or Spartans wanted more territory, wanted the wealth of their neighbors, so attacked to steal it. This was always a terrible thing to do. And it is not ancient history -- let's not forget that it happened in western Europe in our parents' lifetime. However we seem to have pretty much learned how to keep this from happening in Central and Western Europe and North America, and we are certainly well prepared to protect ourselves from such an attack should it come from elsewhere.
The current war being waged against the US is not such a war. It does not have the same goals, nor does it follow the same rules as such a war. It calls for a different response.
I don't think that anyone believes that the US has any interest in governing Afghanistan or Libya. I suspect that neither the Taliban nor Osama bin Laden have any interest in leading the US government. These leaders don't want 63" television sets and automatic garage-door openers for their people. They don't want more land to farm, or coal mines or a warm-water port. They don't want to annex Montana to Afghanistan. This is not a 'normal,' good old-fashioned economic war.
These religious extremists find our western culture morally repugnant. They think that they have perfect insight into the desires of the only true God, and they are ready to kill us if we don't live how they think God wants us to.
They think the way we live is an abomination before God, and they hate us for that. They think that our existence is a threat to the moral purity of the world, and that the pervasive communication of our values threatens what they consider the righteous and godly way of life that they have appointed themselves to protect.
If it helps to conceptualize this, try to remember how you felt about South Africa during Apartheid. Or try to imagine what you would think of a nation where it was OK for parents to kill their children until they were eight years old. If you share some values with me, you hated Apartheid, and you would really hate the theoretical infanticide nation.
However we didn't attack South Africa. And we shouldn't have. And it would not be right for us to attack the infanticide nation. It would be OK for us to refuse to do business with them. It would be OK for us to propagandize against them. But it would not be OK to attack them for their internal policies. And these Islamic terrorists should not be attacking us. Let them despise us; but using force against us because they disagree with our culture is just not OK. And we will defend ourselves.
The attackers hate the very things that make us great
There is no way for us to befriend these people and retain that which makes America the "the best dream man has ever dreamed" (thank you Randy Newman):
- They hate us for our religious tolerance and plurality,
- They hate us for making strides towards equality for women,
- They hate us for allowing women to control their own bodies and metabolisms,
- They hate us for making strides towards the tolerance of homosexuals,
- They hate us for embracing sexuality in music and culture,
- They hate us for our democracy,
- They hate us for our Atheism, our Christianity and our Judaism,
- They hate us for our freedom of speech and dissent,
- They hate us for sticking up for our friends and allies in time of need,
- They hate us for an economic system that enriches and empowers individuals,
- They hate us for separation of church and state.
Shame on you Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson
I find it wryly amusing that our own most closed-minded religious charlatans echo the very intolerance that led the attackers to murder at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
To be fair, Falwell and Robertson are not terrorists. They don't use violent attacks to carry their message or get their way. However for a look into the minds of the terrorists, we need only listen to what Falwell and Robertson have to say about these attacks.
One more comment first: I find it especially offensive that Falwell & Robertson suggest that these attacks were a divine response to our society's sinfulness. This would mean that the monsters who did this are the agents of God. And to give divine credibility to the bastards who flew planeloads of innocents and gasoline into civilian office buildings makes me want to vomit. Shame on you Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
Here is part of what Falwell and Robertson said:
"[T]he pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way — all of them who have tried to secularize America," Falwell continued, "I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" "Well, I totally concur," responded Robertson.
Falwell and Robertson meant that God was angry because of these things. I don't believe that. And I don't believe that F&R have any way to know God's mind. However I do believe that our tolerance of "pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians" etc. are in fact the kinds of things that make the Taliban and Osama bin Laden hate us. They also hate us for not stoning to death women who go out in public with their elbows showing.
This is not about Israel, former-Yugoslavian Muslims or US bases in Saudi Arabia or any other red-herring
When asked directly if there were anything we could do to appease Osama bin Laden, Yusef Bodansky, author of Osama Bin Laden: The man who Declared War on America responded "pack up and move to another planet."
They won't stop their holy war if we abandon our Israeli friends to their neighbors. They won't stop if we leave the bases in Saudi Arabia and throw Kuwait to the wolves. They won't stop if we abandon our UN responsibilities in former Yugoslavia. They won't stop if we send representatives to bogus meetings about racism where the real goals are anti-Semitism and picking Europe's pockets.
They won't stop until we stop them. Further, if we abandon our Israeli friends (or any other part of our foreign or domestic policy) we let the terrorists win. We owe it to the fallen not to let this happen.
The attackers are stone-age goatherds, and I don't respect their culture, but that doesn't make it OK to attack them
However their attacking us does give us the right to defend ourselves, and to take away their ability to do it again.
The attackers have no clue about how the world works
If they did, they would never have done what they did. The consequences of their cowardly terrorist attack on us will be antithetical to all they hope for in the world. We will support Israel more fervently. We will unite more perfectly to defend our way of life. We will punish the nations that harbor them. And we will come and get them and their allies, and destroy them and their ability to harm us and make us afraid.
We can not appease the attackers
They have made it clear that this is a culture war, a holy war, and that they are dedicated to the violent destruction of our society. There is no way to pay them off, or come to some negotiated understanding. What do we have to bargain away? Can we offer to suspend freedom of religion if they stop hijacking our planes, pretty please? We could offer them Israel on a silver platter and they wouldn't slow down their attacks one whit. We have no appeasement options. We shouldn't appease them even if we could, since to do so would be to slander the memory of the fallen victims of their terror.
But we can't even if we want to.
They won't stop attacking us until we stop them
They will never stop as long as they have the capability to attack us, and the belief that anything but unbearably terrible consequences will come from continued terrorist attacks. We must destroy their capability to wage war against us, and disabuse them and any potential future terrorists of the idea that the result of terror can ever be anything but the opposite of what they want on the issues, coupled with sudden, ruthless, inevitable destruction of terrorists and their allies.
The leaders of the attacking groups are cowardly pigs
Why don't the leaders of these terrorist groups go and die for Allah, rather than sending ignorant adolescents to do it in their stead?
This is not like conventional war where the physical fitness of soldiers makes a difference. Osama bin Laden can drive a truck into an embassy just as well as the children he sends to kill and die in his name. Let the coward become a fedayin and die for Islam himself if he really believes.
It is my guess that he is a cowardly hypocrite, who is more about ego and control than belief. It is my guess that he uses the faith of his followers to gain power over them, for his own gratification, more than he holds that faith himself.
We owe it to the fallen to keep our way of life intact
Keep working. Don't stop traveling. Don't destroy civil liberties. The attackers want to destroy our way of life. Don't let them. Don't give up your way of life. Don't let the bastards win.
We owe it to the fallen to make their sacrifice one which ultimately renders the world a better place
Let us hope that this is the beginning of the end of state sponsored terrorism. We will have the thousands who died to thank for the safer world that we build in their honor.
Forcing another nation to live by your standards is not OK
As a nation is composed of individuals, whose rights should be respected, so is the world composed of sovereign nations, whose sovereignty should be respected. It is wrong for Islam to try to force their standards on us, or to attack us for following different rules. So also would it be wrong for us to try to force them to live our way. Attraction through communication is not force. But we must now respond to their violent attacks with a violent defense that is orders of magnitude more terrible than the worst they have to offer.
Self-defense is not only a right to be held inviolate, but a responsibility
If a group or nation is attacking the US, it is obviously OK for the government and individuals under attack to defend themselves.
I consider myself a quasi-pacifist, but I do believe in self-defense in situations where non-violent non-cooperation just does not make sense. Non-violent non-cooperation does not work against a rapist, a carjacker or an attacking army. Even Gandhi said "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." I can't tell you how much I wish Gandhi were still alive today, so we could learn what he would think of this, and how he would advise us to act.
However, we have to go forward without the guidance of the Mahatma.
I further believe that part of self-defense is appropriate response. After a group or nation attacks the US or its citizenry, it is incumbent upon the US government to destroy that group's capability to conduct further violence. This must be done in order to prevent future attacks, and also as a disincentive for others to follow in their path.
When this means destroying the attackers themselves, so be it. When this means destroying civilian life along with the destructive capability of our enemies, then god damn them for making us kill civilians by attacking us, but we must have the terrible will to do just that if there is no other way to defend ourselves.
Put another way -- if the choice they have given us is only between letting them kill our children, or killing their children behind whom they are hiding, then we must kill them and their children along with them. Remember that they are the ones who hide among civilians. They are the ones who attacked us. They are the ones who chose to attack our civilians anonymously, and fail to meet us soldier to soldier on the military filed of battle. They have set the rules, now they, and tragically but unavoidably their children, will die by their rules. And again god damn them for creating the situation and rules under which we are forced to do this terrible thing.
Pre-emptive self-defense is OK when the threat is credible and explicit
If a group or nation acquires the credible capability to do grave damage to the US or its citizenry, and announces its intention to do so, it is incumbent upon the US government to render them incapable of carrying out such an attack.
It is the emanant volition of the potential attackers, combined with their credible capability, which confers to the intended victim the right to pre-emptive self-defense.
We must continue to respect the rights of Americans
While it is clear that we have to allow the FBI and other agencies to do their work in apprehending those responsible for this attack, and thwarting other future attacks, we must find a way to do so that does not degrade the rights and freedoms that make America what it is. To do so would be to allow the terrorists to win. Even if it means shouldering some increased risks, we have to do so, hold our heads high and live life as we know it despite the attackers' worst efforts.
We should show respect for the citizens of respectable nations
While we are not obligated to fully afford the rights of citizens under our own constitution to foreigners, we should do so to the best of our ability in countries that respect the rule of law, and cooperate in the global fight against terror.
We have no responsibility to afford rights to those conducting war against us
They abrogate their rights when the declare war on the US and its citizenry. They have no more expectation of privacy, habeas corpus etc. anymore.
Those who harbor or abet our enemies are our enemies
If you let a robber operate out of your house, knowing that he is a robber, then you are an accomplice to his robbery. Governments that allow terrorist training camps, planning, publicity, fundraising and mounting of attacks to take place in their territory are accomplices before the fact to any acts of terror conducted by their 'guests'. They must pay the same price the terrorists themselves pay.
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