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To: Ilaine who wrote (10117)	9/23/2001 12:21:28 AM
From: smolejv@gmx.net	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

Wow, what an answer, CB... You sure, Ma'm, you got the right number? I just applauded the (yet again expressed) suggestion of shifting the energy paradigm. btw, the quote - and the original in xroads.virginia.edu/... - give me mental indigestion. Have to go get me my morning dose of the ancient drug called caffein. dj

To: Ilaine who wrote (10117)	9/23/2001 1:32:07 AM
From: Cogito Ergo Sum	Respond to of 74559

You're doing it again CB, My head hurts.. LOL. regards Kastel a cute and cuddly Canadian

To: Ilaine who wrote (10117)	9/23/2001 1:52:09 AM
From: elmatador	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

<<Maybe there's a limit to how far a civilization can advance and then it has to stop.>> No way! Civilization is nothing that we can freeze in the state it is in. Every new generation comes and extends what the previous has built. It is in us. Any individual country that would pursue this course of action, would be left behind because another one would overtake it. What we are seeing, right now, it is a power -the US- struggling itself with its inner problems. IT is been happening since about the end of the 50's. The Russians put the first satellite in orbit. The US went back to drawing board to re-think itself. The gold standard was no longer feasible (1972), Watergate ad the Vietnam War end, there went the US to a decade of introspection. Today (2001) it is again the same. The US is trying to come with terms with itself. There is nothing wrong with that. There is no one in a place somewhere waking up Monday morning and thinking: "How are we going to screw up peace and the economy?" It is just a dynamic of our societies. So far the US have done quite well, taking into consideration only less than 300 million people. But it gets hard and harder to keep the top position. Not because someone is training to topple the US. Just because everyone else is trying to care for his own interests. If those interests conflict with those of the US, there's limited options for the US to deal with them. There are mechanisms (G8, WTO etc) to try to align interests of some of the participants. In the periphery the smaller participants have also their own interests. They will not seat on thier hands. They try to devise actions to shake the bigger ones without reaching a big size to do so. I don't have terrorism in mind when I write that. I have economy in my mind. When this becomes feasible, it is hard to keep the consensus of a few. This state of things -smaller being able to shake the big, the consensus of the bigger not matter as much as it did- it is here to stay and it will only get much so. And there is no possibility that a single element will control the process. (Ok there is but under the moral standards of this century it wouldn't be acceptable). I think when you mention that civilization has to stop, you, in fact mean, civilization as you conceive today. But there are civilization and civilization.