To: Ilaine who wrote (10226 ) 9/24/2001 2:19:12 PM From: jim black Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 74559 CB, it is the painful irony, the devastating dilemna that we face potentially in what lies ahead. I do not believe in collective guilt either, any more than I endorse killing of innocents or in the whole concept of collateral damage in war. The fear I harbor is that the true enemies, the fundamentalists themselves will either so inflame or so enmesh the rest of Islam, mainly Sunnis, that we will face a threat to our survival as a civilization from forces hidden amongst or integrated within more moderate Muslims, who either by correct or faulty logic, side with those who would destroy the non-Islamic West. It will be that moment, when we as a subset of our species, unwilling to bend to the obedience of fundamentalist madness and unable to separate the "innocent and misled" from the true enemies, the sponsors of bin Laden and his ilk, that we may be forced to choose...us...or them...please it God not all of them...that choice may define the history of this century, the history of this day forward. And there is this painful hindsight, that would but we could, would we not revisit that era of 1973-1974 and commit as a nation, as the Western World, to energy independence from the Mid-East? Oh what painful insight is hindsight. But I stand by my guns, pun unavoidable, if it comes to your boys versus a hundred thousand "innocent Iraqis" who stand against their will by Saddam who is willing to use nukes, biologicals, or sarin, I know what my decision will be. This is not sophistry we engage in. It is not meaningless verbal masturbation, but rather part of the survival dialogue we must face as we contemplate surviving this "Bust", financial and otherwise, all JMVHO, and I admit I'd not offer a part in this dialogue if Jay were "in town" for fear of running him and his valuable insights from our thread. Really folks, whether we are "into this dialogue or not"...this sucks. For those interested in a perspective of a veteran of Russian involvment in Afghanistan, Isopatch on the Moderated Oil Service thread has a chilling commentary about what US and its allies face in Afghanistan, post number #2051 or thereabouts. Jim Black