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Politics : War -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: epsteinbd who wrote (4995)9/27/2001 9:54:05 PM
From: epsteinbd  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 23908
 
DEAR CAROLYN. Your idea of opening this forum was excellent, and I have met here very interesting, informative, prudent thinkers. They desserve all my respect and my warm thanks for their contributionsss.

But as you already know, there is just too much hate going around this place, hate and racism, athough it originates but from a few.

I do not know what their plan is, nor do I care. But it is not bearable any more, at least for me.

So I prefer to say goodbye to you all. And those that desserve it know they desserve it.

As for myself, I'll migrate to other skies and chase other clouds.

Thanks you Carolyn ! All the Best !

Epstein Benoit Dov



To: epsteinbd who wrote (4995)9/27/2001 11:46:47 PM
From: hdl  Respond to of 23908
 
you were very slow to see the obvious- your responding to them (and for so long) just encouraged them all the more- and dignified their hate-which it didn't deserve.



To: epsteinbd who wrote (4995)9/28/2001 4:42:29 AM
From: Noneyet  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 23908
 
Epstein,

I wanted to copy the following article on this thread because I thought it is pertinent to the discussion here. I was going to post it to Carolyn, but decided to post to you instead. I am not certain of my feelings about Israel's role in all of this, however, this is compelling material that there is more than meets the eye. I am not sure if this has been posted here before, or if it has been discussed already. I copied this from a different S.I. subject. I did email Israel's defense department and asked what their position is on the incident. I have not received an answer as yet.

Eric Margolis, Toronto Sun, April 29, 2001
Toronto Sun <editor@sunpub.com> | April 29, 2001
A new look at Israel's bombing of the USS Liberty
By ERIC MARGOLIS
<margolis@foreigncorrespondent.com> Contributing
Foreign Editor
On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War,
the intelligence ship USS Liberty was steaming
slowly in international waters, 14 miles off the
Sinai Peninsula.
Israeli armoured forces were racing deep into the
Sinai in hot pursuit of the retreating Egyptian
Army.
Liberty, a World War II freighter, had been
converted into an intelligence vessel by the
top-secret U.S. National Security Agency, and
packed with the latest signals and electronic
interception equipment.
The ship bristled with antennae and electronic
"ears" including TRSSCOMM, which delivered
real-time intercepts to Washington.
It was to monitor communications of the
belligerents in the third Arab-Israeli war: Israel
and her foes, Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon
flights flew over Liberty, which was flying a
large American flag. At 1400, waves of Israeli
Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers attacked
with rockets, napalm, and cannon, concentrating on
the ship's antennae and electronic dishes. Liberty
was left afire, listing. Eight of her crew lay
dead, 100 wounded, including Commander William
McGonagle.
At 1424, Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking
the burning Liberty with 20 and 40 mm shells. At
1431 a torpedo hit the Liberty amidships, where
the signals intelligence systems were located.
Twenty-five more Americans died.
At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship.
Israeli warships poured machine-gun fire into the
life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were
being massacred, a rescue mission by U.S. Sixth
Fleet carrier aircraft was aborted on orders from
the White House.
An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and
planes returned. Commander McGonagle gave the
order to repel boarders, but the Israelis,
probably fearing intervention by the Sixth Fleet,
departed.
Liberty was shattered but defiant, her flag still
flying. Israeli attacks killed 34 U.S. seamen and
wounded 171 out of a crew of 297, the worst loss
of U.S. naval personnel from hostile action since
World War II.
Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told
Washington its forces had committed a "tragic
error." Later, Israel said it had mistaken Liberty
for an ancient Egyptian horse transport.
U.S. Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint
Chiefs of Staff head, Adm. Thomas Moorer, insisted
the Israeli attack was deliberate.
So did three CIA reports. One asserted Israel's
defence minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had ordered
the attack. Reports that the savaging of Liberty
was deliberate were hushed up by President Lyndon
Johnson and Defence Secretary Robert McNamara. The
White House and Congress accepted Israel's
explanation. Israel later paid a token reparation
of US$6 million.
But surviving Liberty crew members would not be
silenced.
They kept demanding an inquiry and tried to tell
their story of a deliberate attack to the media.
Israel's government worked behind the scenes to
thwart these efforts, going so far as having
pro-Israeli groups accuse Liberty's survivors of
being "anti-Semites" and "Israel-haters."
Major TV networks cancelled interviews with the
crew. A book about Liberty by James Ennes was
dropped from distribution.
The attack on Liberty faded into obscurity until
last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford
came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book
about the National Security Agency. In a stunning
revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel,
a U.S. Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft, flying
overhead, electronically recorded the attack. The
U.S. aircraft crew provides evidence Israeli
pilots knew they were attacking a U.S. Navy ship
flying the American flag.
Why try to sink a vessel of a benefactor and ally?
Most likely because Liberty's intercepts
contradicted Israel's claim, made at the war's
start on June 5, that Egypt had attacked Israel,
and that Israel's air assault on three Arab
nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began
the war by a devastating, Pearl Harbor-style
attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed
their air forces.
Washington had warned Israel not to invade Syria,
which had remained inactive while Israel fought
Egypt. Bamford says Israel's planned offensive
against Syria was abruptly postponed when Liberty
appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was
knocked out of action. Israel's claim Syria had
attacked first could have been disproved by
Liberty.
Liberty's intercepts also may have shown Israel
seized upon rising Arab-Israeli tensions in
May-June, 1967 to launch a long-planned war to
invade and annex the West Bank, Jerusalem, Golan
and Sinai.
Far more shocking was Washington's response.
Writes Bamford: "Despite the overwhelming evidence
that Israel attacked the ship and killed American
servicemen deliberately, the Johnson
administration and Congress covered up the entire
incident."
Why? Domestic politics. Johnson preferred to cover
up the attack rather than anger a key constituency
and fiscal backer of the Democrats. Congress was
even less eager to touch this "third rail" issue.
Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal
of Honor for his and his men's heroism - not in
the White House, but in an obscure ceremony at the
Washington Navy Yard. Crew members' graves were
inscribed, "Died in the Eastern Mediterranean."
A member of President Johnson's staff believed
that Johnson offered Jewish liberals unconditional
backing of Israel, and a coverup of the Liberty
attack, in exchange for liberals toning down their
criticism of his policies in Vietnam.
Israel, which claims it fought a war of
self-defence in 1967, will be displeased by
Bamford's revelations. Those who believe Israel
illegally occupies the West Bank and Golan will be
emboldened.
More important, the U.S. government's coverup of
the premeditated attack on Liberty has now burst
into the open and demands an investigation. After
34 years, the voices of Liberty's dead and wounded
seamen must finally be heard.
Eric can be reached by e-mail at
margolis@foreigncorrespondent.com.
Letters to the editor should be sent to
editor@sunpub.com.



To: epsteinbd who wrote (4995)9/28/2001 7:12:15 AM
From: Andy Thomas  Respond to of 23908
 
hi epsteinbd,

i enjoyed your participation on the thread. you have (had?) a very unique voice there.

silicon investor will probably be going out of business soon so it might be worth continuing the 'fight your fight' on the thread. i'm fairly certain that within a few months those bulletin boards will close. where will everyone on the 'war discussion thread' 'go' then?

perhaps you've seen that i've been called 'anti-semitic' as well. i hope that is not really the case with me. i think it's easy to get caught up in the moment and think that "one and one's kind" are "superior" or "less guilty" or "more compassionate" in the context of history; somehow that "we" are better than "those guys."

this wtc thing could lead to a very large war.

from what i understand there is a coalition in america - neoconservaties - who want saddam removed by a u.s.-led attack, and the bekka valley cleared of terrorists. they've written a paper to the white house with their recommendations.

what would you do if you were president?

i mean, assuming the alt.conspiracy-type theories about americans having been involved; and that you knew for sure the perpetrator's were all foreigners without any financial ties to major political or business figures in the west? what if you knew for certain it were all done by self-funded islamics?

what if you were president and you knew that somehow an eu country were involved? the chinese? the russians?

that's where it starts to get complicated. what if the perpetrators are not all islamic?

who is bin laden beholden to? is he his own man or is someone funneling him money?

i will tell you this; if i were president i would go in there and take over. i would have taken over iraq in '91.

bush sr. was probably afraid of the russian reaction had they done that. they stopped in time to allow saddam to remain in power. no mess with the russians if the americans occupy, or with the country splitting in 3 - kurdistan, bagdad, and basra (shiite - would have gone over to iran) if the americans leave.

in '91 i would have taken iraq and made it the 51st state. there would have been amusement parks and cruises and travel packages and everything. all iraqis would have been fully-voting american citizens, with 2 senators and representatives, too.

we could have invaded them culturally with strippers and rock 'n' roll. now that would have been foreign policy!!... just invade every country and flood them with american culture and make them another state!

the u.s. has the same opportunity this time around. they could simply invade and fill those places with strip malls and electronic gadgets, including high-speed internet and lots of PCs. Make those nations into states; 51st, 52nd, etc. as you go.

but this weird quasi-foreign policy they've had of late has been perplexing. well maybe not. maybe it's what we should have come to expect over the past - where do we start counting from? - years.

some say the last 8 years have been bad. some people say the last 20. some people say it's been bad since the war of the states.

some people say it started in the 50s or the 60s... around vietnam..

some people say it started with the whiskey rebellion in what - 1791?

in what era of history did we actually lose the constitution? how much - if any - of the constitution is in effect today as originally intended by the founders? would they have written those same words and made them law today? .. the constitution and the bill of rights, that is? or - if they were alive and writing the same charter today - would it be different because of the culture of today versus the culture of the late-18th century?

that's all up to debate.

by the way, i fully believe that if we simply invaded and occupied the arabian penninsula we could make them all citizens of the u.s. and everything would be happy. there could be so much tourism in the middle east but instead, there are only despots.

as for despots - israel is the least evil of the mid-east governments. those arab leaders all ought to take a look at themselves - with that vast oil wealth and their people with nothing to show for it.

israel is not always right, but they're more right than their arab neighbors. those arabs all need jobs at mcdonalds and laptops, pronto...

'halal' mcdonalds.. now that's the ticket.

this entire isaac-ishmael thing has got to stop. it says in the torah though that ishmael will be at war with all of his neighbors.

if the families of isaac and ishmael were to find peace, i think that the entire world would prosper.

andy