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To: Ilaine who wrote (10530)	10/1/2001 10:23:20 PM
From: X Y Zebra	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

I hope you don't think that Reagan, Ollie North, and the rest all sat around a conference table and decided that someone should rape young girls and cut off their breasts and impale them on spikes. If such a think happened, it was the product of a depraved imagination run amok, not US policy. For now, I will give my own answer and Marcos I am sure will give you his. No, I personally do not think that they planned such acts specifically. But in their zeal to arm and support the contras or whatever other group that happens to be "on deck"... they are making the perpetrators capable of doing their stuff. The support that they give to the band of animals who call themselves "leaders" (i.e. Somoza, Batista, Castro, Pinochet and many others before them) These "leaders in turn hire their own "covert operators" who are the perpetrators of the examples Marcos mentioned. The US in their shortsighted attitude, (bordering on ignorant and even negligent), of simply supporting the first imbecile that said "I am against Communism" [in Latin America] and willing to fight it... the US simply never had the wisdom to "check credentials" or better, monitor that these bastards would not turn against their own people sooner or later. The worst part about it is that in the eyes of the people the Americans become the "responsible" party... wrongful perception, but for practical purposes, very real. After all... The US had the money all along. Indeed not only the money, the US always had the influence. It is the USA's back yard. It IS in the best of American interests to see that the entire Latin American continent should strive to be like the land of the free for it could become a market of well over 400 million people, to expand trade and assist make each of these countries prosperous. For starters, the immigration problem would not exist or at least, it would be small. However... markets are made up of consumers with purchasing power... If Latin America is a market of dispossessed... they won't be able to buy much of anything... The benefits could be substantial for both, the USA and Latin America. Yes I know, it is rather obvious, yet somehow we seem to be missing something as we cannot accomplish the obvious. Leaving these Gorillas (the respective presidentes, tyrants and other cockroaches), to their discretion has yielded the current situation, it appears that many countries have succeeded in at least getting rid of the bloodthirsty leaders, but much is still to be done... So no, the atrocities is not a direct part of US foreign policy, but indirectly, given the way in which whatever foreign policy has been administered, this has yielded up to now the various results that could be argued are "side effects" of whatever official foreign policy there may be. Instead of billions spent in arms, which in many instances are even pointed back at us.... educational programs or similar could in the long run better results... This, done intelligently with participation of each respective government AND the beneficiary himself, so it is not run as a "free for all" thing. Yes I know that similar programs have been tried before, what puzzles me is how come the military assistance programs are run with incredible efficiency and yet the educational ones seem to always fail... The main point is... The US should not leave the gorillas it employs to their unsupervised discretion in its pursuit of defending American Interest around the world. Starting in Latin America would be... well, a good start, after all... We are neighbors. Just a thought...

To: Ilaine who wrote (10530)	10/1/2001 10:47:20 PM
From: Cogito Ergo Sum	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

all sat around a conference table and decided that someone I bet you're right CB, but time and time again US policy has set the stage for these events and by so doing gave people at the receiving end the impression of tacit approval. There has been a lot of play in the press after WTC asking 'Why do these people hate us so much'. regards Kastel a cute and cuddly Canadian

To: Ilaine who wrote (10530)	10/2/2001 2:33:57 AM
From: marcos	Respond to of 74559

It was the product of a number of depraved imaginations employed by US policy-makers in their full knowledge of the depth of the depravities involved - in fact the individuals had been hired for their efficiency in instilling terror and extracting information ... lots on record regarding this, check out Batallón 316 some time ... or use the english 'battalion' ... here we are - 'Colonel Juan López Grijalva, another three-time graduate of the SOA in Battalion 316, returns to the SOA as a guest lecturer in both 1991 and 1992. ' www-personal.umich.edu .. the 'SOA' there, that's the 'army school of the Américas' run by the US federal government at Fort Benning now, used to be in Panamá ... btw, the history of the argentino units from which many came can be traced back to nazis who had been helped to enmigrate in 1947 with the help of Evita Peron, in an operation called Die Spinne This was a rinky-dink little country with a rinky-dink little experiment in something they called 'communism' following their ouster of a pig of a dictator, and the men who operated the most massively powerful military force the planet has ever known chose to hire torturers to terrorise its population and plant landmines that are still blowing up its children, to get the money with which to do so by selling drugs into US cities and selling arms to Iran ... Equis says 'perception is reality' but it is also true that realities stimulate perception, and quite graphically - 'Todo se quedó en el tiempo. Todo se quemó allá lejos' jornada.unam.mx There is no excuse for North, nor for Reagan who hired him, and there never will be, 'plausible deniability' only works until proof comes out ... i can't see the point in glossing over this stuff, or pretending it doesn't happen, it does happen and it's been happening for over two hundred years - mbay.net Learning how it happens and hopefully how to avoid it would seem to be important at a time like this ... you say in a later post that US nationals don't know much about 'foreign policy', don't much concern themselves with it, well i think that is true and explains a great deal of it, but perhaps it is time they did, after all these are their tax dollars at work, their futures on the line ... maybe with a casualty count of this size on US soil they will, for a little while.