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To: SFW who wrote (127353)	10/4/2001 1:01:59 PM
From: yard_man	Respond to of 436258

Thanks for posting that ... there are so many stereotypes out there.

To: SFW who wrote (127353)	10/4/2001 1:07:20 PM
From: Haim R. Branisteanu	Respond to of 436258

Abed, thank you for your post and I concur with you that there are various interpretation of Islam or the Koran writings. The subject of our criticism is not with those liberal countries whose upper class integrated well into our society, but with those factors who still cling to ancient interpretations of the teachings. It seems to me that many modern governments are giving way to those clerics that are trying to take them back centuries. One best example is Iran were the Shah in his way tried to force a society to integrate with the western world only to be forcefully demoted and the country to fall back several centuries. Pakistan is also a country of big contradiction as is Indonesia a liberal well integrated upper class and a very big contingent of uneducated and poor people. (Would disagree on Egypt as the ruling party there are power hungry) Further to avoid such instances as they hapen in Iran, only liberal education and the abolishment of gender discriminating laws will help. For example why circumcision of girls is not outlawed in Egypt and other moderate muslim countries is beyond me. In my youth and from other personal experiences I had many positive encounters with Arabs. Many were open to new ideas and concepts. We had Arab friends sleeping in our dorms or we going to their homes on weekends ....... there were no real tension as far as I remember ........ but that was in the 60's before radicals started to seize power. .............. and in retrorespect it is sad that the good times failed as a result of those radicals. Wish those times to come back. Thanks for participating. Haim

To: SFW who wrote (127353)	10/4/2001 1:23:06 PM
From: Box-By-The-Riviera™	Respond to of 436258

nice post!!

To: SFW who wrote (127353)	10/4/2001 1:31:54 PM
From: flatsville	Respond to of 436258

Abed- >>>The one thing that most seem to focus on is the veil (head cover, not face cover). True. It is mandated by Islam, and some women are forced into wearing one, but you'd be surprised at what percentage of women actually choose to wear one. Remember that Christian and Hindu women also cover their heads and many do so outside church (Amish) and they don't make the headline news. Head cover does not translate into oppression.<<< I know of no women who cover their heads in this country who are not members of an orthodox religon (Amish for example.) Speaking as a woman who was once required to cover her head in church I can assure you it does translate into "oppression" however subtle. Only when the church was forced to recognize that many of its' American women were openly in revolt by refusing to wear a veil did the leadership lift the requirement...and the veils went into the trash, where they belonged, for good.

To: SFW who wrote (127353)	10/4/2001 5:09:02 PM
From: pater tenebrarum	Respond to of 436258

Abed, i acknowledge that i have painted a somewhat exaggerated picture. and i agree of course that not all Islamic countries can be painted with the same brush. however, even in the Western world, where women have without doubt achieved a greater degree of emancipation than anywhere else, there still exists the so-called 'glass ceiling'. and even the more enlightened corners of the Muslim world have traditions that make life more difficult for women than for men...that at least has been my personal impression. anyway, it is of course also true that the Western view of Islam is full of misunderstandings and stereotypes that are probably rooted in the relatively narrow window on the world our media provide. which is why i have on occasion posted somewhat provocative pieces like Professor Ahmad's '98 lecture at the University of Colorado. the line between cultural chauvinism and constructive criticism is no doubt a very fine one...in that sense my blunt generalization was probably a bit insensitive. please feel free to join the debate anytime...there is no 'off topic' here.

To: SFW who wrote (127353)	10/4/2001 5:56:26 PM
From: Haim R. Branisteanu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 436258

One little comment on your phrase >>>>>>As an example, men have to sign a pre-nuptial agreement that would provide the woman with an agreed upon alimony in case of divorce. All property owned by a married woman and income she earns is her's to do whatever she want with. None of that 50-50 stuff when a divorce happens. <<<<<<<<<< ..... that is an tradition / obligation of the Jewish faith written in the Bible. I think that Isaac needed to work for seven years to pay for his alimony to Lavan (spl?), and since then no Jew can marry without a "KTUBA" a piece of paper that was even adopted in NY State were no marriage between two Jewish people is recognized without those terms. Jewish divorce terms are as you mentioned, and practiced even in NY State sorry for the late comment, but wanted to correct facts I know. Haim