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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cosmicforce who wrote (31325)	10/8/2001 8:50:11 PM
From: gao seng	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Lol, and I guess communism offers life credits? I think not. You get the same reward for mining coal as the librarian gets for burning books. What's fair for me, period is not relativism. That approaches satanism. If you truly do not care about the plight of others, and will do whatever necessary to achieve your personal goals, then why not satanism?

To: cosmicforce who wrote (31325)	10/8/2001 11:50:22 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Fair wages seems to mean "what's fair for me. Period." That's relativism, Bud. One can be of the opinion that some things are not matters of absolute morality while still maintaining that some things are matters are without being at all inconsistant. Fair wages may not even be a moral ideal at all. Fair is what gets accepted as fair in a truely free market place. The wages are unfair if they are manipulated down by force or fraud, but then it is the force of fraud that is the unjust. Decent wages are an important practical good, and I would rather see the world be better in a practical sense then worse, but people aren't intrinsically entitled to have others pay them a certain amount of money. Tim

To: cosmicforce who wrote (31325)	10/9/2001 8:48:21 AM
From: thames_sider	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Here's a capitalist you might like... old J.S.Cadbury, founder of the chocolate company. There's a good history at cadbury.co.uk - excerpts... The Cadbury family were prominent members of the Society of Friends or Quakers, one of the many nonconformist groups formed in the 17th century in protest against the formalism of the Established Church. Quakers held strong beliefs and ideals which carried into 'campaigns for justice, equality and social reform, putting an end to poverty and deprivation.' As nonconformists, Quakers were not permitted to enter the Universities, which in the 19th century were closely linked with the Established Church. So entry into the professions was impossible and pacifist principles precluded the military as a career. The energies and talents of Quaker families were therefore directed towards business, social reform and the transformation of social and industrial society in Victorian Britain. Many Quaker families have made their mark on the British business scene - in addition to the Cadburys , the Frys of Bristol, Rowntrees and Terrys of York developed the confectionery business; Sampson Lloyd of Birmingham founded Lloyd's Bank; the Hanburys brought tinplate to Wales and the Darbys of Coalbrooke were the founders of the British iron industry. John Cadbury's lifelong involvement with the Temperance Society had an influence on the direction of his business enterprise. By providing tea, coffee, cocoa and chocolate as an alternative to alcohol, which was believed to be one of the causes of poverty and deprivation amongst working people, he felt that he was helping to alleviate some of the misery. [I'm sure some here would agree on the chocolate] ... By the late 1870s the flourishing Cadbury business had outgrown the Bridge Street factory. The workforce had risen to 200 and after 32 years at Bridge Street, in 1878 the Cadbury brothers started their search for a new site. Rather than take a factory in the recognised industrial quarter of Birmingham, the brothers decided to go to the country. "If," they said, "the country is a good place to live in and play in, why not to work in?" They realised that food should be made in clean, healthy surroundings. Also they knew that space would be needed for future expansion and to create better working conditions as looking after the welfare of employees was an important consideration for the brothers. ... The Cadbury brothers were pioneers in industrial relations and employee welfare, setting standards which other enlightened employers followed. As the company prospered new work practice ideas were implemented and additional facilities were provided for the workforce. ... When the new factory was built at Bournville it had many facilities which were unknown in Victorian times - properly heated dressing rooms; kitchens for heating food; separate gardens for women and men plus extensive sports fields. Special workers' fares were negotiated with the railway company and 16 houses were built for senior employees. Keen sportsmen. Richard and George Cadbury encouraged sports and other recreational activity, often playing cricket themselves. Sports facilities included football, hockey and cricket pitches, tennis and squash racquet courts and a bowling green. Women's and men's swimming pools were built and every young boy and girl joining the company was encouraged to become a good swimmer. Works outings to the country were organised and summer camps for the young boys. ... One notable point on Bournville: George Cadbury was a housing reformer interested in improving the living conditions of working people in addition to advancing working practices. Having built some houses for key workers when the Bournville factory was built, in 1895 he bought 120 acres near the works and began to build houses in line with the ideals of the embryo Garden City movement. Motivation for building the Bournville Village was two-fold. First George Cadbury wanted to provide affordable housing in pleasant surroundings for wage earners. The second reason was that as the Bournville factory grew, local land increased in value and was ready to fall into the hands of developers. The last thing that the brothers wanted was that their 'factory in a garden' would be hemmed in by monotonous streets. This area, now in southern Birmingham, is still very sought-after and desirable 100 years later. Likewise for Port Sunlight, near Liverpool, built with similar ideals by the Lever brothers (whose company became Unilever). Meanwhile, as fine modern capitalists, it's hard to beat the example of Ted Turner <g>