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To: Cogito Ergo Sum who wrote (10668)10/9/2001 11:20:14 AM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 74559
 
is nothing cut and dry anymore ?

Absolutely not. The world is a complex thing. They are no easy answers. Never were.

The Palestinians are essentially silent, though they hate the US as much as Bin Laden, because there may be some good for them that may come out of the present crisis. Witness the recent US/Israel friction and the leaking of the notion that the US wants a Palestinian state.

Bin Laden uses the Palestinians and the Palestinians use him.

I linked an article at the Foreign Affairs thread which is disturbing. In a nutshell, it suggests that OBL's motivation is to unseat the House of Saud. King Fahd has apparently taken up residency in Europe, the long time Saudi intelligence chief has been sacked, and there is substantial conflict between the Saudi conservatives and the more liberal factions.

Saudi Arabia is clearly the prize of prizes. Bin Laden's strategy may be to unseat the House of Saud and replace it with his House. Naturally, he would be the head of it.

The implications for the Western world should he succeed are enormous.

If he survives the present conflict, OBL has a reasonable chance of success. It is imperative that he not survive the Afghani conflict alive.



To: Cogito Ergo Sum who wrote (10668)10/9/2001 11:56:58 AM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 74559
 
NYT on recent Palestinian leanings:

at Decides to Take a Gamble on the West
nytimes.com
By JAMES BENNET
October 9, 2001
JERUSALEM, Oct. 8 — Today, Yasir Arafat took a gamble, confronting a radical Palestinian crowd in a bid to shore up his own position and assert his international credibility as the possible leader of a Palestinian state.

For the first time in years, Mr. Arafat's security forces used deadly force against Palestinians to suppress a demonstration in support of Osama bin Laden. In a cloud of tear gas and a hail of bullets, two Palestinians — one of them only 13 — were slain. Another was close to death.

It was the most dramatic evidence to date that the terrorist attacks on the United States have dented the entrenched thinking of the enemies in the conflict here and created a new chance for peace at the same time as causing a spike in violence.

Many Palestinians sympathize with Mr. bin Laden regardless of whether they supported the attacks on the United States. They say he is a fellow Muslim, accused on trumped- up evidence out of a secret desire by the United States to assault Afghanistan. They say Americans react only to their own suffering and economic interests, and will make no effort — much less war — to provide other peoples with enduring freedom.

Yasir Arafat knows this bitterness better than anyone. For years, he has deftly capitalized on it. And today he took brutal measures against the people of the West Bank and Gaza Strip to stop them from expressing it.

In the Persian Gulf war, Mr. Arafat backed Saddam Hussein and saw his international support vanish. On Sept. 11, some Palestinians were filmed celebrating the attacks and Mr. Arafat was once again given a glimpse of the abyss, of life as an international pariah.

Turning his back on this possibility, Mr. Arafat opted to preserve his links with Western governments, while at the same time to send a clear message to radical Palestinian factions, some of whom threaten his authority that the time has come to rein in their agitation, at least for now.

The message he wanted to send out was the one that the Bush administration wanted to hear. As Mr. Arafat himself stayed silent, his spokesman delivered it in response to Mr. bin Laden's televised attempt Sunday to rally support by invoking the Palestinian cause. His spokesman, Yasser Abed Rabbo, said that what he called crimes against Palestinians could not justify killing civilians in New York. There was wriggle room left even in that statement: Mr. Abed Rabbo did not say that Mr. bin Laden was behind the attacks. Regarding the airstrikes in Afghanistan, Mr. Abed Rabbo said that Mr. Arafat was waiting to develop a joint statement with other Arab and Muslim foreign ministers. But a few hours later, Mr. Arafat's guns, turned on supporters of Mr. bin Laden, were more explicit.

Mr. Arafat's calculation appears to be that most Palestinians, even if they sympathize with Mr. bin Laden, will accept today's police action as necessary.

"There is a Palestinian political state of maturation," said Dr. Ziad Abu Amir, a political scientist who is the head of political committee of the Palestinian Legislative Council. Dr. Abu Amir noted that Mr. Arafat, Mr. bin Laden and President Bush had one thing in common: all have expressed sympathy for the Palestinian plight — some far more recently than others — in hopes of generating Arab support.

But Palestinians are jaded when it comes to low-cost compassion. "Over one year of intifada and Palestinian resistance, people saw a level of Arab or Islamic intervention or support that was below expectations," Dr. Abu Amir said. This fact inevitably makes Mr. bin Laden's appeal to the masses more attractive. The Israelis have been pushing Mr. Arafat to arrest militant Palestinian leaders to demonstrate a commitment to the peace process. For the most part, he has resisted. But now it seems his hand may be forced.

Hamas, the radical Islamic movement with broad backing in Gaza and the West Bank, today expressed strong support for Mr. bin Laden. The violence in Gaza began when the police tried to stop demonstrators from Islamic University, a Hamas stronghold.

Late tonight, Palestinians wre still battling against Palestinian police forces in Gaza.

In 1996, at another critical juncture in the peace negotiations, Mr. Arafat arrested some leaders of Hamas, dramatically reducing violence against Israelis. It is that experience that Israeli officials keep citing as they press Mr. Arafat for action now. Mr. Arafat later released those leaders, and they are now more popular, and their followers better armed, than they were in 1996.

Mr. Arafat, a senior Israeli intelligence official said, has not yet "had his Altalena." That was a reference to a fateful decision taken a month after Israel's founding by David Ben- Gurion, then the new nation's prime minister. Rather than permit a ship called the Altalena to bring in guns for a right-wing Israeli movement, he ordered it shelled. It sank off Tel Aviv.

If Mr. Arafat does crack down on militants — to protect himself, to promote peace, or both — then it is Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel who will be put to the test. The world may learn if has been seeking to provoke civil war among the Palestinians, as some Palestinians believe, or whether he wants a secure peace, as he says.

The Bush administration's new commitment to a Middle East peace effort will also be tested. Colin Powell, the secretary of state, has also been urging Mr. Arafat to make arrests.

Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company



To: Cogito Ergo Sum who wrote (10668)10/9/2001 1:48:11 PM
From: KyrosL  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 74559
 
Kastel, the problems in the ME are many, but Palestine is at the root of most of them -- at least the ones that cause hatred of America. I think that once the Palestinian problem is solved (and I think it will be solved relatively soon) America should disengage from the ME (other than solidifying Israeli-Palestinian peace) and let the Arabs sort the rest of their problems among themselves. We can relatively easily achieve energy self-sufficiency, through conservation, nuclear, coal, and renewable sources.

Being the policeman of the ME ultimately helps Europe and Japan and hurts us. Let them do the protection, if they are worried about their oil supplies. BTW, I doubt that a radicalized regime in SA will stop selling oil. Iran and Libya are all too glad to sell their oil to the world.