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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: k.ramesh who wrote (4463)10/11/2001 11:37:24 PM
From: kumar  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
I am not sure what to make of your post. mixed emotions, IMO. I would love to hear 1+ billion people singing to the same hymn.

cheers, kumar



To: k.ramesh who wrote (4463)10/12/2001 1:20:33 AM
From: Nikole Wollerstein  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
""Ike ..Wish there were more Pakistanis like you ""
Most of the Pakistanis are like Ike. Wholesale extermination of civilians, torture, mass killing of POW
are very well documented facts in the history of the Muslim states.
However every Muslim, including respected historians
Will deny it and will paint idealistic picture of the historical events that happened .
Here we have very important differences in the understanding of History between us (Western Civilization) and Muslims. We want to know how things are really happened in the past to better understand current situation and plan our behavior for better future outcome. For Muslims History is a collection of stories that make you feel good about yourself and justify your position and action(inaction) in the Society.



To: k.ramesh who wrote (4463)10/15/2001 3:57:52 AM
From: IQBAL LATIF  Respond to of 281500
 
<Many in Pakistan seem to think that they have more in common with Arab culture than the Indian subcontinent, in an attempt to avoid acknowledging overpowering Indian cultural influence. >

Dear Ramesh sahib, I thought you missed this one, I for one don't have any doubts about my very Indian roots..

<Pakistan and its rulers encouraged terrorism. Its President/CEO/dictator/army general is a person who encouraged terrorism and now he is changing face. IMO.>>

Dear Tony,

Do you remember your exchanges with me during the Kargil episodes in which you asked me why our then Prime Minister agreed to such an intrusion into India so soon after the Lahore declaration when Mr Vajpayee visited us?

At the time I had replied that the then government had little knowledge about the front and this was an operation carried out in retaliation to the old loss of the Quaid post (by the famous Indian Subedar Singh who was awarded the highest medal of gallantry and our General Zia, then military C-C at the time, was sent a ‘burkha’ by Benazir Bhutto on that loss) in the Siachin. That loss and ridicule was never forgotten by the generals on our side!!

These are two professional armies that were originally one. These professional armies have a certain conduct and carry out their operations to show each other down. Soon after the fall of Dhaka, when General Niazi laid down his arms with 92,000 soldiers, instead of being butchered by the ‘Mukhti Bahinis’ (freedom fighters of the Bengal), these soldiers were saved by Indian forces and in the evening, General Aurora (Commander of the Eastern Command) and General Niazi were sharing a gin tonic at Calcutta Gymkhana. They both were a product of Daredoun (military academy).

These Generals who attend war courses and plan strategies to overcome each other do make serious errors of judgments when war games are played in life. Kargil was one such war game and ultimately wa not successful. However, from a military standpoint, this was a continuation from the Siachin dispute and they wanted to show themselves equal to the task and pulled a quick one vis-a-vis India. We can discuss it as neutrals and distance ourselves from vain patriotism but you have to give some credit to the Generals who are paid to do what they do. Much as I condemn Kargil, I believe that India and Pakistan have in the course of last 54 years not been the greatest of friends. They have fought 3 wars and countless border skirmishes and all this dates back to cruel Muslim invasions of India where the invaders from the north pillaged the subcontinent at will. The remnant hatred in the subcontinent finds its roots in history and unfortunate tendency of stamping authority on past subjects.

Until we do not have objective analysis of the background, we are not going to tear ourselves from our ugly past. I can see that the Muslim invaders of India over the peaceful Hindus were invasions for bounty. Imagine Ghaznavi invading Somnath 17 times with the only incentive being to recover the gold in the temple, not Islam; they were bandits.

ATTACK ON SOMNATH TEMPLE

Date: January 8, 1026 Weather: Cold

TERRAIN: Flanked on one side by sea and a lightly wooded forest on the other. Desert less than 50 miles northwest (direction taken by the attacking force).

STRATEGY: Mahmud of Ghaznavi marched from Multan with 30,000 cavalry and a multitude of volunteers eager for plunder. Mahmud employed a combination of swordsmen and archers on horseback in an arc with a deep defensive force in the middle. The surprise attack resulted in a shower of arrows from archers and was followed by a ladder-borne mounting of the temple amparts. The king of Somnath fled with his entourage while the temple was protected by 50,000 poorly armed faithful with little military training. Mahmud scored with surprise, cavalry charge, better logics and motivation of Jihad; it was not Jihad but robbery and banditry.

SIGNIFICANCE: The temple's ruthless plunder was a psychological setback to Hindustan. It set an example of India as a very rich but very poorly defended place, ripe for loot.

The 200 million Muslims of united India are a product of these following invasions as a result of coercive conversion or some others being descendants of these invaders.

THE SECOND BATTLE OF TARAIN

Date: 1192 Weather: Moderate

TERRAIN: Flat. Western extremity of the Gangetic plains.

STRATEGY: Prithviraj Chauhan, the king of Delhi was complacent after his success in the First Battle of Tarain in 1191 where he had defeated Mohammed Ghauri. This time Prithviraj was hamstrung as his two chief generals were unavailable. Ghauri attacked the rear lines of Prithviraj which were completely outflanked. Though Prithviraj's cavalry launched a very effective counter-attack, forcing Ghauri's retreat, the Rajput ruler didn't press home the advantage. The flanks of Prithviraj's forces were attacked by Ghauri's light cavalry. The sideways disruption caused a sudden halt and hesitation in Prithviraj's advance, and chaos in the rear which was moving forward. Tactically it was brilliant – it resulted in denial of space to Prithviraj, which neutralised his numerical superiority. Once boxed in, his troops were massacred.

SIGNIFICANCE: The battle established the sultanate in Delhi.

ATTACK OF TAIMUR THE LAME

Date: 1398 Weather: Cold

TERRAIN: River-crossing Attock – the same place where Alexander had crossed the Indus 1,700 years earlier. Slightly hilly.

STRATEGY: The attack was in line with the Turkish-Mongol style of massed waves of attacks. Estimates vary but with 92 squadrons of cavalry the number could have been as high as 60-80,000. The Mongols who attacked Delhi were cavalrymen of a different order who could virtually live on horseback. This force, drawn by news of weak sultans in Delhi (the Tughlaq dynasty had ended and Delhi was ruled by Nusrat Shah), simply steamrolled all opposition till its destination. Nusrat Shah fled after weak resistance. The victory was followed by the sacking of Delhi and a general massacre of the population.

SIGNIFICANCE: Taimur's raid ended the supremacy of the sultanate in India. In the aftermath of the attack the influence of the sultanate remained only for 200 miles around Delhi. It also marked a power shift from Afghans to Turks and Mongols.

FIRST BATTLE OF PANIPAT

Date: April 21,1526 Weather: Hot

TERRAIN: Flat alluvial plain near the city of Panipat.

STRATEGY: Babar, the invader from Samarqand, had 25,000 infantry and cavalry while Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi had a massive army of 100,000. For the first few days neither army moved. Then Babar sent 5,000 men swung in night attack. Although they were beaten, the momentum of battle swung in favour of Babar-Lodhi's armies moved the next day. Babar employed his cannons with great effect and induced terror in Lodhi's ranks. The well-defended middle of Babar's army pressed forward in flanking 'flying column' attacks with his cavalry. The attack from the left showered Lodhi's forces with accurate musket fire while the right absorbed the brunt of Lodhi's counter-attack and pounded his defences with artillery fire. The battle ended by late afternoon with at least 20,000 of Lodhi's troops dead, including Lodhi himself.

SIGNIFICANCE: First major battle to be won by artillery and against such superior numbers. The battle led to the establishment of the Mughal Empire in India. "Not for us the poverty of Kabul again," Babar records in his diary.

SECOND BATTLE OF PANIPAT

Date: November 5, 1556 Weather: Cold and windy

TERRAIN: Flat alluvial plain.

STRATEGY: Hemu (Hemchandra), the King of Delhi had lost most of his artillery in an earlier battle where his advance guard had been defeated. However, his 50,000 soldiers struck rapidly at Akbar's force at 25,000 and were turning the battle into an easy victory for Hemu. Suddenly, Hemu was struck in the eye by an arrow which also pierced his brain. As in many medireview battles, the loss of the leader caused panic among the troops and the tide turned the other way. At his point a concentrated artillery attack by Akbar's general-and mentor-Bairam Khan turned the tide of the battle. Later, Akbar beheaded Hemu and exhibited his head on a spike outside the gates of his fort in Agra.

SIGNIFICANCE: The battle gave the Mughal Empire a firm base. This was the first empire which ruled with the capability to aggregate as many as 500,000 troops at short notice and, therefore, had a qualitatively firmer grip on its empire than the preceding sultanate.

The geographic situation of the Indian subcontinent, where Pakistan is situated in the north, historically demanded that all these invasion routes run through these northern parts of India. This is the same land of King Porus who fought against Alexander the Great. This was a total Hindu land that was converted by these multiple invasions from the north. The central Asian republics and Afghanistan were converted to Islam in the time of Omar bin Khatab. These invaders from barren lands made the Indian subcontinent a land where they would just run across, rape, pillage and loot at will. WE were a riparian society, hence peaceful and timid people; the invaders were rough hardened nomad people who found this peaceful people as great objects to embezzle and loot. This is the history of our subcontinent.

You ask me to justify why Musharraf is a dictator and why the Pakistan army does what it does and throws away democracy. Can you disassociate the ideology, habits, custom of people and the habits of people of the past where we rise from? You cannot, since we are slaves of history! Gentlemen, democracy is a habit and its very nature requires tolerance. We have none of it in our strain of ideology practiced in the land we call Pakistan. We are a product of abuse of power over centuries.

King Sher Shah Suri, the ruler of India who made the GT road from Calcutta to Peshawar, and who had forced the mogul emperor Humayun to abdicate, used to say that Afghans will always be warriors and will always fight and will be at each other throats. How prophetic! In his memoirs, you will find that he wanted to destroy Afghanistan and rehabilitate all the Afghans in the subcontinent. Today, the subcontinent is the way it is as the ideological divide created two different ideologies. Unfortunately, Pakistan and the Islamic world are still caught up with carrying forward the standard of Islam. As such, it is prone to far more mistakes that are only natural when governance is mixed with religion.

When someone asks me why Pakistan is not democratic. I spin the question around. Which other Islamic country from Morocco to Malaysia has a democratic government?

The sad truth is that the people of my country are of the same stock as you are, but the difference is the ideological intolerance and inbred Islamic system that encourages a strong man to lead them, has brought intolerance with democracy being sacrificed.

Caliphate was one such institution. Until Ata Turk came and destroyed the Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire was the centre of worship by the entire Indian Muslims. The Turkish caliphates names were a part of the daily 5 time prayers of all the Muslims in the world. Dictatorship, Intolerance, the emergence of a strong man is part and parcel of the Islamic society as a whole that is not just prevalent in Pakistan. Islamic societies do create demons and we have to live with them. Saddam is one; Ghaddafi another, to name a few. We are now facing one intolerant man in Afghanistan, Mullah Omar. There is a galaxy of villains around and I have been fair to myself by acknowledging the problems within the Islamic world and trying my utmost to address these issues in my analysis.

When I am faced with Omar, Saddam, Asad and Ghaddafi as compared to someone reasonable like Mahathir or Musharraf, I take it as a blessing in disguise. In Kargil, I had totally opposed his policy but at this juncture, when we are fighting a far greater evil, to fight Musharraf, or to discredit him, does not help the delicate situation to retrieve the real culprits.

The issue boils down to whether we are going to carry the cross for the whole world? Yes, the Indian hijacking was wrong but India should not have allowed, once the plane landed in Amritsar, to take off to its eventual journey to Kabul. That would have sorted out a lot of complications, which arose as a result of the hijackings. Your ‘black-cats commandoes’ could have done a clean job when the plane was still on Indian Territory. To send it to Pakistan or let it fly to Afghanistan was a strategic error.

These very terrorists are friends of no-one. Today they are chanting death to Musharraf. The point is what does the world coalition achieve by hitting Pakistan or its dictator? That is not the issue of the day. Unfortunately in politics, the very national interests are far superior to justice. I can see your point and justice demands that all these people who have been involved in committing these atrocious acts should and must be brought to justice.

Talking of politics, when Kemal Ata Turk fought the last battle in this century for the enlightenment of the Islamic world by destroying the intolerant institutions of the Ottoman Islamic Empire, do you know who led the movement in India for the restoration of this distorted institution? It was the Ali brothers (Muhammad and Shaukat Ali) and Mr. Gandhi who told the Indian Muslims that they should all fight this western attempt to abolish the Caliphate (Khilafat) of Islam. This was expediency, but the strongman image in Islamic society was condoned by Mr Gandhi although he himself was a great democrat. He himself realised that without a strong man or centre, these societies seem to wither. Imagine that! Hindu Mahatma Gandhi leading the restoration of Khilafat movement with Ali brothers. Thousands of Muslims sold everything and wanted to fight for the re-establishment of Caliphate. What majority of Turks had rejected, Indian Muslims assumed; assumed their dutiful and God-given right to restore.

A prime example of contemporary history is when Saddam was left off the hook by Colin Powell. The Allied forces could have flushed Saddam out of Baghdad, but again, Mr Powell thought that this was not an objective and they could not create a vacuum in the region only for Iran to regain initiative and conquer the spoils. They wanted a strong Iraq as a counter balance between Shiite Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia. I understand your concerns as to why Musharraf and Pakistan are not being punished? But imagine, as I have explained to you above, the issue between India and Pakistan is a historical dispute between estranged cousins and people of the same stock. Who wants a vacuum in the north of India at confluence of China, Russia, Afghanistan and the Central Asian Republics?

Strategic realities require that Pakistan should have fallen in place and provided all the facilities that they have so that they can be a part of future stable nations of the earth. I just don’t buy this blind attack by some strategists to take Pakistan out. The only strength I feel in myself is my ability to see the weaknesses of my nation. You denounce my country as a beggar nation, and I see your point, but history also tells me that Mahatma Gandhi gave his life for the sake of Pakistan. He was martyred by a Hindu extremist because he was keeping “Mohanbrath” (which means fasting till death) so that the Indian government may judicially fulfill its obligations to pay 80 crores rupees due to Pakistan on its independence from India. Do you know that the sum was never paid?

This is one of the reasons Mahatma Gandhi is my model. He was a man above these artificial boundaries. Blind hatred of any nation is not good. I want every good that India has for my nation, and I pray that all the bad that my nation has should not even go near India. The only way this world can survive is to appreciate each other’s position and form a greater alliance and understanding of human beings that should use history of the past as its tool for our future conduct. With all my faults and shortcomings, I have overcome vain national pride and patriotism in favour of realisation that one should love his country but not at the expense of others. I wish India all the best but I know that a fragmented Pakistan would be a nightmare for India from which India can never recover.



To: k.ramesh who wrote (4463)10/15/2001 4:00:10 AM
From: IQBAL LATIF  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
<I wish Musharraf well, but your positive spin is I am afraid just that. >

Militant political Islam is vocal strain but a force that is now facing its final death. Muslims own failures have resulted in the emergence of militancy as a response to the abject failure of Muslim society to provide the essentials needed for dignified human existence. When dignified human existence is denied unfortunately 'dogma' becomes the acceptable currency.

Grossly unequal distribution of wealth in Muslim countries, suppression of fundamental human liberties, mistreatment of minorities and women, and populations soaring out of control, have produced a nightmare in the populace. This is very well exploited by the likes of Osama's of the Islamic world, which see in this failure of governance the possibility of painting new rosy picture of the waiting houries. This is one reason that 'genital' organs of all these suicide bombers are well protected. They sometime wear several underwear’s before the devilish attempt to make sure that everything is functioning when they meet their 'maker of evil' and get their booty; not a second to be lost in last minute re-attachments problems. With these perverted minds in ascendancy, lack of democratic expression and consensus building, a social vacuum emerges that is a natural associate of such perversion. If one forgets usefulness of this life and think of it as a burden and make next one an objective you detach the basic contract of life gifted by god, once this is tragically severed nothing can mend it.

It is for this that you see amongst Muslim states that most of them have massacred their own citizens by the thousands in Iraq, Syria. There are dictators and coups, nepotism and corruption. Heads of government in Muslim countries rarely retire they are either overthrown or they often meet violent death through assassination. We are little lucky, no other country in the Islamic world could have stomached the kind of fundamentalist rioting we are seeing, the reason we can see through it is that they are allowed to do what they are doing, allowed to express themselves until they take law in their hands, this basic difference is one fact that you will see that Pakistan with all its inherent contradiction will be able to deliver on this one commitment to get this man and clean this mess.

The riots and upheavals are part of expression and no one can stop it but the leadership will also not relent that know it well that this is the time that Pakistan has to deliver. In any other Islamic country such expression could not be imagined or the rulers would be too afraid to take the populace on, in Pakistan call it weakness but the very ability to call the bluff of the fundamentalist gave us the ability to choose our sides well defined, their is no ambiguity. Now states like Saudi whose very power structure and ruling family is at the heart of this conflict is ambivalent and cannot take a stand for two reasons they have no idea how their population is going to respond and the militant strains of this unholy 'jihad' has germs of Wahabism and extremism that were reinvigorated by none else than Abdul Wahab and Syed Qutb.

If you just look at Iraq and Yugoslavia and Afghanistan the latest in last one decade and try to find similarities with Pakistan, you may on paper find a lot but in actuality none, Iraq, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan all were given chances to roll back the crime, Iraq by getting out of Kuwait until 15th Jan in Geneva Baker was proposing this to Tariq Aziz, next was Yugoslavia given a lot of chances in Kosovo after Bosnia, and Afghanistan until today is being told not to harbour Osama and hand his cohorts and him but all these states have dogma or vain arrogance more important than security of its people. Now look at what Pakistan did, it did not waver for a second and joined the coalition within seconds of the call on that 11th midnight, if one would have gone by media depiction of Pakistan, we should have made similar errors of arrogance and political highhandedness rather bigger considering our ego should have been greater as we are a ‘crude nuclear power,’ but as fate would hold it, the entire posturing of the world media that Pakistan is a rogue state fell on its face, for one reason we are not, we are very open society, openly critical of our countries wrong doing and openly critical of our ideological mooring. The open mass demonstration against a military ruler depicts the difference we have with Iraq or Syria or any of the other Muslim dictator ship, we cannot quell these by mass removal, we will quell them by continuing the policy of removing the cancer from our northern borders and than addressing these bandits within our own borders. This clamp down is unique as far as I remember and it will hopefully change our image and hopefully help us to regain a enhanced status of semi-enlightened state.

The things I write here are things I talk about in my own country, as you know I spend a lot of time in Pakistan. Pakistan is not a case of lost opportunities rather you may see that it will pick up from here, the best thing happened to us is this show down with extremist right and if we come out successful by calling their bluff of ‘street power’ agitation the extremists may have now discovered that the days that they could use Pakistan as their cot state are over, deny them sanctuaries and vacuums and you will never have Osama’s of the world threatening you, this Afghan war is all about deny a crib of terrorism to crazy lunatics, I hope that India and Pakistan can resolve a bundle of differences once our country is freed from this dark forces of terror. I surely do credit Indian culture for teaching me 'jeeven jeeven ka sathi' that is monogamy, and respect for life, the reason we don't have that Arab gassing methods is because we were and part of Indian sub-continent and not Arab an land. We saved our neck because we did not get involved with that false pride where raining bombs decimate populations but not the false cry of jihad for Allah. WE are seeing one other example of this kind of vainglory being punished but unfortunately religious extremisms breeds this exceptional insanity.