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Pastimes : The Semi-Coherent Anti-American Babble Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: robnhood who wrote (96)	10/12/2001 9:55:05 PM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 148

Speaking of infected holes, you don't happen to know this one, do you? messages.yahoo.com (It's an off-topic question, I realize, but hey, it's my thread...)

To: robnhood who wrote (96)	10/12/2001 9:55:41 PM
From: CVJ	Respond to of 148

What country are from that you from? None that I know of that don't lie and con their citizen's once in a while. Your pacifist bullshit doesn't work when one side kills 6000 people from 32 countries within a few hours. The time has passed for cheek turning; we've done enough of that for 10 years. It doesn't work. KILL! KILL! KILL!

To: robnhood who wrote (96)	10/13/2001 6:15:50 AM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Respond to of 148

It's a vicious, murderous world. Who's keeping you safe? Who's protecting you? ****************************** On October 5, 1942, by accident, Hermann Graebe, a German engineer and manager of a German construction firm in the Ukraine, and his foreman, came upon an Einsatz execution squad killing Jews from the small town of Dubno in the Ukraine. He gave the following eyewitness account: "My foreman and I went directly to the pits. Nobody bothered us. Now I heard rifle shots in quick succession from behind one of the earth mounds. The people who had got off the trucks - men, women and children of all ages - had to undress upon the order of an SS man who carried a riding or dog whip. They had to put down their clothes in fixed places, sorted according to shoes, top clothing and undergarments. I saw heaps of shoes of about 800 to 1000 pairs, great piles of under-linen and clothing. Without screaming or weeping these people undressed, stood around in family groups, kissed each other, said farewells, and waited for a sign from another SS man, who stood near the pit, also with a whip in his hand. During the fifteen minutes I stood near, I heard no complaint or plea for mercy. I watched a family of about eight persons, a man and a woman both of about fifty, with their children of about twenty to twenty-four, and two grown-up daughters about twenty-eight or twenty-nine. An old woman with snow white hair was holding a one year old child in her arms and singing to it and tickling it. The child was cooing with delight. The parents were looking on with tears in their eyes. The father was holding the hand of a boy about ten years old and speaking to him softly; the boy was fighting his tears. The father pointed to the sky, stroked his head and seemed to explain something to him..... historyplace.com

To: robnhood who wrote (96)	10/13/2001 6:19:12 AM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 148

Stalin killed more Jews than Hitler did. Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler did. And Mao likely killed more Chinese than Stalin killed Russians. Who keeps your gutless butt from harm?

To: robnhood who wrote (96)	10/13/2001 6:26:23 AM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Respond to of 148

Why don't you study this site a little bit and come back and tell us how much of this the United States is responsible for? ******************************** As shown on this web site (e.g., see Table 1.2 of Death By Government), from 1900 through 1987 governments murdered near 170,000,000 people. With respect to this figure I am often asked how much of this occurred since the end of World War II in 1945. With the conclusion of that war and the discovery of the breadth and depth of the Holocaust, many demanded "Never Again." But our history since has rather been: "Again, again, again, and again." hawaii.edu

To: robnhood who wrote (96)	10/13/2001 6:35:16 AM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 148

And don't miss this: hawaii.edu And then come back and tell us what country on this planet saved worms like you by being strong enough and determined enough to stand up for 40+ years against the expansion of communism: ****************************** Finally, at the extreme of totalitarian power we have the greatest extreme of democide. Communist governments have almost without exception wielded the most absolute power and their greatest killing (such as during Stalin's reign or the height of Mao's power) has taken place when they have been in their own history most totalitarian. As most communist governments underwent increasing liberalization and a loosening of centralized power in the 1960s through the 1980s, the pace of killing dropped off sharply. Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked. But there is a larger lesson to be learned from this horrendous sacrifice to one ideology. That is that no one can be trusted with power. The more power the center has to impose the beliefs of an ideological or religious elite or impose the whims of a dictator, the more likely human lives are to be sacrificed. This is but one reason, but perhaps the most important one, for fostering liberal democracy.

To: robnhood who wrote (96)	10/13/2001 5:05:42 PM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Respond to of 148

"I don't like war and killing" When it was first published in France in 1997, Le livre noir du Communisme touched off a storm of controversy that continues to rage today. Even some of his contributors shied away from chief editor Stéphane Courtois's conclusion that Communism, in all its many forms, was morally no better than Nazism; the two totalitarian systems, Courtois argued, were far better at killing than at governing, as the world learned to its sorrow. Communism did kill, Courtois and his fellow historians demonstrate, with ruthless efficiency: 25 million in Russia during the Bolshevik and Stalinist eras, perhaps 65 million in China under the eyes of Mao Zedong, 2 million in Cambodia, millions more Africa, Eastern Europe, and Latin America--an astonishingly high toll of victims. This freely expressed penchant for homicide, Courtois maintains, was no accident, but an integral trait of a philosophy, and a practical politics, that promised to erase class distinctions by erasing classes and the living humans that populated them. Courtois and his contributors document Communism's crimes in numbing detail, moving from country to country, revolution to revolution. The figures they offer will likely provoke argument, if not among cliometricians then among the ideologically inclined. So, too, will Courtois's suggestion that those who hold Lenin, Trotsky, and Ho Chi Minh in anything other than contempt are dupes, witting or not, of a murderous school of thought--one that, while in retreat around the world, still has many adherents. A thought-provoking work of history and social criticism, The Black Book of Communism fully merits the broadest possible readership and discussion. --Gregory McNamee amazon.com

To: robnhood who wrote (96)	10/13/2001 5:19:15 PM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 148

I hope you're hiding under your bed: " It was not, apparently, the recitation of killings that irked the left in France but Courtois' condemnation of Leninist regimes as criminal enterprises. That stance challenged the left's deeply seated tenets that communism, despite excesses, was progressive.." "...the cumulative toll of victims of communist rule, estimated by the authors at between 85 and 100 million, dwarfs even the crimes of the Nazis. In the Soviet Union the toll included 6 million deaths during the collectivization famine of 193233, 720,000 executions during the Great Purge, 7 million entering the gulag in 193441, many of them to die, and nearly 3 million still there when Stalin died. In China there were probably 10 million direct victims, another 20 million in China's gulag, the Laogai, and between 20 and 43 million during the Great Leap Forward, the largest man-made famine in history. In Cambodia, the worst recent example, one in seven of the population died. And to these the authors add the cost in eastern Europe, Vietnam, North Korea, Afghanistan, Latin America, Ethiopia, Angola, and Mozambique. Nor is it just statistics: the authors tell, for example, of the young children in Cambodia hung from the roof by their feet and kicked from side to side until they died." amazon.com