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Politics : High Tolerance Plasticity -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dale Baker who wrote (9503)	10/14/2001 2:50:52 PM
From: kodiak_bull	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23153

Dale, You missed the point, but maybe you've missed the entire point. Unlike any previous conflict the U.S. has been involved with, you, YES YOU (assuming you are an American, or happen to be flying on an airplane, or happen to be in a tall building (in the West), or happen to be in the habit of opening your daily mail) are now on somebody's hit list, as are your parents, your cousins, your little nephews and nieces and lots of people you never met. That is, there is somebody out there WHO WANTS TO KILL YOU. That might not bother you, but the fact that there is somebody out there who not only wants to kill me but also my niece Alexandra and has proven the ability (to the tune of 6,000+ civilian casualties and counting since 9/11/01) to carry out the start of the program BOTHERS ME AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF MY CO-CITIZENS. I realize that in your cafe society you and your fellow boulevardiers might pooh-pooh the entire idea, but then again, soldiers are jumping out of airplanes willing do die to defend your right to have inane views and conversations. As I have noted many times here, the solution here is not to target Islam but to embrace Islam, give it a good bear hug, and coax it toward evolving toward 20th and 21st century standards of appropriate behavior, respect for human rights and rights of people living 5,000 miles away and working in 110 story towers. We are now entering into a world wide police action, civilization vs. terrorism, but unlike normal police activity, we are forced to act when 1) we don't have geographical jurisdiction and 2) we don't have political authority. We can act, appropriately, to police the Mafia or general disorganized crime, but we need to find a new way, a new method to act against world criminals outside our geography. If that includes "shunning" passengers from certain "nations," in order to pressure their "authorities" to do what they have, so far, failed to do (that is, exterminate the threat of terrorism), then that's okay with me. Islam and Islamic countries, should they ever choose to evolve toward secular and pluralistic forms of government (we're talking only Turkey and maybe Malta?? as far as I've ever heard), will have to extirpate the international criminal movements occurring in their jurisdiction before they can be allowed free congress with the civilized world. I understand that, draping yourself in the cloth of certain parts, and certain parts only, of the Constitution, you want to tell everyone that, wellll, it's okay, because statistically, very few of us will be actual casualties of any terrorist attack, so we should all feel fine. And that Ahmed Abdullah el Amir of Yemen, pulled off of a USAir flight bound for Denver for questioning (this is by way of example only) might feel his rights as a USC student in violation of 3 parts of his visa status have been impinged; to which I (and the vast majority of us) would answer, tough luck, you'll have to make do with a later flight until certain Very Important Questions are answered. And, you know what, if those same airport security guards or FBI agents want to pull me off because of various stamps in my passport and ask me questions and make me miss my connecting flight, that's okay with me, too. And it is especially okay with me if they do it to you and all the others who have not bothered to read the entire Constitution and have not bothered to think about the scope and nature of exactly what happened on 9/11. But since this is a republic of self government, and self preservation, you won't mind if your view ends up, quite correctly in my opinion, as the minority view, and not the course of action we end up following. Having said this, I am in agreement with Russ Feingold on his recent position vis a vis Ashcroft's request and also with the State of Wisconsin on the pledge of allegiance and school prayer. I do think the Bill of Rights is very important, but that doesn't mean we have to grant plane tickets, visas, immigrant or otherwise, to citizens of states which are not acting in accordance with the clear and present needs of Civilization. Kb

To: Dale Baker who wrote (9503)	10/15/2001 2:31:00 AM
From: schrodingers_cat	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 23153

I don't think that we are talking about targeting American citizens here...only troublesome foreigners. I very much doubt that there is anything in the Constitution that says that we must allow the citizens of every nation on earth free access to America, regardless of the national security implications. Did we allow Germans and Japanese to run around the country during WW2? I think not. Did we allow Russians to roam around the country freely during the Cold War? No. So why do we now allow Saudis, Egyptians and other Arabs to enter the US, in the full knowledge that some of them are here to kill Americans? Of course it is unfair on the majority of people from those countries, many of whom are probably ashamed of the terrorists in their midst, but what else is the US to do? How unfair is it really, considering that Saudis (and other Muslims) call us infidels, and most definitely do not allow us anywhere near their holy cities? Look at the Al-Qaida members who have been arrested. 95% are nationals of a handful of countries in the Middle East. If we deport the citizens of those countries from the US then we have a good chance of ripping up the majority of the US terrorist network, stopping the attacks and defending our Constitutional rights to "life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness." All the liberal chatter about the Japanese-American internment camps during WW2 misses one critical point. No American of Japanese descent was involved, directly or indirectly, in the attacks on Pearl Harbor. The Pearl Harbor attack was not launched from within the borders of the US. That is one big reason why internment is now thought to be so unfair. Of course, 9/11 is a very different situation. As for the great example of racism in America, the segregation in the South, let us remember that there was never any reason, national security or otherwise, to make black people sit in the back of the bus. That was simply one group of people demonstrating their power over others through humiliation. Deporting foreign citizens of countries from whom Al-Qaida recruits its operatives is not a return to our racist past...it is simply what needs to be done in order to prevent further acts of terror such as 9/11. If the terrorists have a network of American citizens, then we will have a more difficult problem on our hands, but present evidence suggests that Al-Qaida operatives are mostly foreign.