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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Poet who wrote (33035)	10/15/2001 1:32:14 PM
From: Mac Con Ulaidh	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

I find that a "defining" characteristic. Why does someone need to come out and say that? Do you really care if you can change someone's mind? Do you need to "be told, upfront" that "by the way, youyouyou can't change my mind"? Why do people do that? That is not even in my top 100. Like I don't ask about relationships (unless I'm interested in maybe having one), I am very disinterested in whether or not someone is a person who can't not have their changed. Like I would care enough to bother to do that?

To: Poet who wrote (33035)	10/15/2001 5:03:50 PM
From: J. C. Dithers	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Poet -- We both have known from the outset that I must be on the losing side of this debate. The threshold for me to lose is not if I say something negative about gays. The threshold is much lower than that. It is if I say something about gays that is anything less than complimentary. And the standard for judging whether I do that, is the standard of what the very sensitive person could perceive. So that does tie my hands behind my back, if I want to avoid being called insensitive at the very least, and more likely being called much worse. Notwithstanding, I will continue the discussion. I am choosing to respond to the spirit of your message, rather than selected sound-bites fom it. As I see it, the two prevailing themes are the courage to declare one’s self as gay, and the sensitivity that should be shown in discussing gayness. Your eloquence about the courage of gays in declaring themselves such was very moving. And it would even be true ... if we were living in America many years ago, or if we were living today in Afghanistan But the reality in America today is that it would take more courage to risk being perceived as anti-gay. You could easily lose your job for doing so. You could be sued. The might of the federal government stands ready to come down on you in all of its force and majesty. Social opprobrium is the very least you could expect. Gay-bashing, even murder, will lamentably continue to occur, along with other hate crimes. But these crimes will be given the highest priority by law-enforcement, and be prosecuted with the utmost vigor. I know a young man quite well, who faced the moment of informing his parents that he is gay. We talked a lot about it. It did take a kind of courage for him to do that, but not because he expected to be scorned (and he was not) ... only because he knew his parents would be saddened and disappointed to know that they would never enjoy being doting grandparents in the conventional way. That is an aspect of gayness that we don’t see discussed very often. You make an excellent point when you ask me to substitute other words for “gay,” such as “black,” “feminine,” or “Jewish.” When I do that, I find some of my own words to be insensitive or even offensive. But why is that so? It is because those terms refer to race, gender, or ethnicity ... which do lie close to the heart and soul of who a person is. I think you do a disservice to the historic battle for justice waged by these groups to imply that “sexual preference” stands on equal ground with them. I do not know whether sexual preference is determined at birth, or even before. I don’t believe science as yet has an answer for this. Personally, I believe that this is the case with many gays. (And I truly don’t know whether some may find it offensive for me to believe that). I do know that sexual preference is not immutable, as it is common knowledge that there have been those who have changed their preference or orientation. I do know also that I could decide to change my own sexual orientation before the sun sets tonight. I am not being facetious here. Husbands and wives have ended marriages because they yield to an inner desire to live their remaining life as gay or lesbian. This is going to grate on you, but gayness does mean sex. It is a word now substituted for Homosexuality. It means the kind of sex one prefers having. That, anyway, is what my three dictionaries say, in very much the same brief words. I think you become annoyed with me because I seerm not willing to endow gayness with a host of other attributes and qualities. Well, I just see no basis for that. And I guess, as you see it, that tells the world that I am impossibly insensitive ... or worse. Concerning my objection to the “outing” of deceased personages, you seem to be saying that I only object to this if it is homosexual. Well, I think it can only be homosexual, or perhaps bi-sexual, inasmuch as the “default setting” for sexual preference is heterosexual. Eleanor Roosevelt lived one of the most magnificent and laudable female lives, ever. She was a woman filled with love, for her family, for her friends, for humanity. Perhaps she had sex with another woman, perhaps she had sex with the butler. I don’t need to know whether she did or not, and I believe that it demeans her memory and all of the true accomplishments of her life to insist that it is so important that we do have to know. It may bring comfort and support to contemporary gays to establish that Eleanor shared that orientation ... but I think it is selfish of them to invoke her memory for that purpose. This has no connection to good or bad, it is simply a matter of invading someone’s privacy and of deflecting attention from a person’s meaningful accomplishments in life. Well, that’s probably enough between you and me on this, Poet. It is the style here to select tidbits of messages for zingers, and I have probably provided quite a few choice candidates. JC