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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Brian Sullivan who wrote (6088)10/18/2001 8:15:04 PM
From: HG  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Actually he really doesn't understand that.

The arab world is very big on titles. And hierarchy is an essential part and parcel of their social system. And the ones lower in the foodchain are always obliged to revere those higher up. It is a given. Complete and blind obediance to authority. And Prince Talal thinks he is "Authority Personified". The success of a project is always attributed to the guy at the top. The failure to the guy lower down.

Guiliani is much lower in heirarchy here. The Prince is basically pissed off that a guy so low in the foodchain has the nerve to do that to him and get away with it. In his mind, the success (of the cleanup operatiion) isn't Guiliani's at all, so why he's classified as a hero, well, the concept is alien to him.

As per the Saudi way of life, Guiliani would probably have been thrown into the prison by now, for questioning authority !

OK guys, I'm not defending the Arab way. This is just an observation of why Prince Talal comes across so arrogant and enraged with teh return of the cheque. From HIS viewpoint, taking his background into consideration, he thinks he has a reason to.

More than their oil, US and the coalition should ask them to take their money and get the hell out of US & Europe. He can make a CD at the Palestinian Bank and be happy.



To: Brian Sullivan who wrote (6088)10/18/2001 8:25:00 PM
From: KyrosL  Respond to of 281500
 
Wow, a Newsweek interview, a Larry King interview, the congresswoman from Atlanta apologizing and asking the prince to send some money her way, the prince all over the news.

It seems to me the prince understands Americans very well and got to air his point of view very very extensively. And it didn't cost him a cent.



To: Brian Sullivan who wrote (6088)10/18/2001 8:29:27 PM
From: CountofMoneyCristo  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
msnbc.com

Look, America has to face reality if they don’t want to fight terrorism for the next 100 years. You’re going to kill bin Laden, you’re going to kill the Taliban, but you’re going to have tens of bin Ladens and tens of Talibans coming.

What took place in New York should never, never ever happen again. But it is going to happen again, God forbid, if we don’t look at the roots of the problem.


- Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal

I think Mr. bin Talal should be barred from the United States for life, if not prosecuted - his assets here should certainly be seized, and all of them. Sort of like when the Gulf States "nationalized" the billions of dollars in assets of American oil companies not too long ago, and then declared and executed economic war on the industrialized world. Memories seem short. These statements are veiled threats, and this is clear blackmail. I have not heard Americans speaking in this tone towards the Arab world, though that might be understandable after Mr. bin Talal's fellow compatriots just murdered thousands of Americans. Yes, let's not forget: these were predominantly Saudi citizens who just killed several thousand innocent Americans for no justifiable reason. Any surprise that Saudi Arabia is not cooperating in finding and punishing those responsible? Wake up, America. This man and his ilk are dishonorable parasites who have done little more in the past hundred years than win the geographical lottery, steal from the West, oppress and victimize their own populations, and fund murdering terrorists to attack those who have made them wealthy.

Q:Ten years ago the Palestinians were all being thrown out of the Gulf because Yasir Arafat backed Saddam Hussein.
That’s an internal problem between brothers. They blundered, they goofed up, and they were penalized for sure.


Here we are: supporting a mass murdered, international criminal and user or chemical and biological weapons against not only another State but also his own people, including women and children, is merely a "blunder"? Bin Talal obviously thinks the mass murders were no big deal but blowing it politically was the error. In other words - the idea was good but the timing was wrong, stupid PLO. He believes the same now.

I saw this man interviewed on CNN. He is aggressive and arrogant. This coming from a man who made billions in New York - NOT "thanks be to God"...thanks be to American industry.

I think it's time we teach people like this a lesson. I think these statements merit his ejection from the country. They are threats upon the lives of innocent Americans. How much longer are we going to have to tolerate this? Not 5 miles from my house there is an Islamic school funded by Iran teaching children - American citizens mind you - to hate Americans and to seriously consider moving to the Gulf and joining the ranks of the "martyrs" fighting the Great Satan. I more than most am a believer in free speech, but these rights to not extend to inciting murder. PERIOD.



To: Brian Sullivan who wrote (6088)10/18/2001 11:31:01 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Respond to of 281500
 
The really sad part is, Prince Alwaleed bin Talal is one of best of the bunch. He's intelligent and hard-working, and that's more than you can say for most of them.

But talk about facing reality, he should try it himself:

Saudi Royals and Reality
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Three cheers for Mayor Rudy Giuliani for returning the $10 million donation made by a Saudi billionaire, Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, after he toured the World Trade Center ruins, handed the mayor a check and then declared that it was time to get at the "roots" of this terrorism — which the Saudi royal defined as the U.S. failure to push Israel to make peace with the Palestinians and to stop Israel from "slaughtering" Palestinians.

No doubt there is deep Arab anger over U.S. support for Israel. I've gotten angry myself over the failure of successive U.S. governments to restrain Israel's voracious settlement-building program. But to suggest that Israel is slaughtering Palestinians for sport, as if a war were not going on there, which Israel did not court, in which civilians on both sides are being killed — or to suggest that President Clinton didn't spend the whole end of his term forging a real plan for a Palestinian state, which Yasir Arafat ran away from, with the Saudi government only a few steps behind him, because it required some fair compromises on Jerusalem — or to suggest that somehow Arab anger over any of this justified people blowing up buildings in New York — is just a lie.

Normally such casual lying doesn't bother me. It's a staple of Middle East politics, and in the end only hurts the liars. But this particular version is dangerous, because it masks a deeper lie that can hurt us. I call it "the virgin birth problem."

To listen to Saudi officials, or read the Arab press, you would never know that most of the hijackers were young Saudis, or that the main financing for Osama bin Laden — a Saudi — has been coming from other wealthy Saudis, or that Saudi Arabia's government was the main funder of the Taliban. No, to listen to them you would think that all these young men had virgin births: they came from nowhere, no society is responsible for them, and no Arab state need reflect on how perpetrators of such a grotesque act could have come from its womb.

Attention, Prince Alwaleed: These young men came from your country, and while the Palestinian issue no doubt angers them, it does not compare to their hatred of what Mr. bin Laden called the corrupt, "hypocritical," "hereditary" Arab regimes, starting with Saudi Arabia.

So if you want to do something useful with your $10 million, then endow an anti-corruption campaign in Saudi Arabia, or endow American Studies departments in all Saudi universities, or endow a center of Islamic learning in Saudi Arabia that would focus on the teachings of reformist Islamic scholars. Or give the money to Seeds of Peace, which brings Arab and Israeli youth together, or invest in development inside Saudi Arabia or Palestine, so young Saudis and Palestinians can find fulfilling jobs. Or persuade King Fahd to say publicly that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, Saudi Arabia would lead the Muslim world into diplomatic relations with Israel.

But whatever you do, stop lying to us and to yourselves. Because we're sick of it, and we're not alone. So many Arab citizens, seeking a better future for their kids, are also starved for the truth. Consider this letter, written by a Sudanese, Hashem Hassan. It was published last week in the London-based Arabic daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi, and translated by the invaluable MEMRI research service.

"We must stop presenting [Mr. bin Laden] as a stepson of American and Western hegemony. He is the lawful son of Arab-Muslim helplessness. He is a completely legal son, to whom we, with our rigidity, gave birth — we the supporters of pan-Arabism, you the Marxists, you the Islamists and you, the other educated individuals. We undermined our homeland and our peoples to the point where they became easy prey to the interests of America, Israel and others. . . . Renouncing these prodigal sons and attempting to lay them at the door of the West is shirking responsibility. It would be better to admit our paternity, and [admit] that our primary mistake in the education that we gave them was that we closed our societies, our schools, and our media to freedom and knowledge, to the possibility of learning from mistakes."

If you really want to honor the terrorists' victims, Prince Alwaleed, set up a newspaper and TV station in Saudi Arabia — not in London — that can freely publish such thoughts. Then we'll start to feel that the roots of this tragedy are being addressed.

Until then, I'm with Rudy — here's your money back.