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To: Rarebird who wrote (78787)	10/23/2001 3:56:51 PM
From: c.hinton	Respond to of 116741

it all makes me think of an appointment at Samara.

To: Rarebird who wrote (78787)	10/23/2001 4:28:24 PM
From: E. Charters	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116741

We won't argue about police states and their tactics or Germanies undeniable errors. But where do you get 6 million? There were hardly 6 million Jews in all of Europe before the war. Perhaps 5 million in Russia, let's give it maybe 6 million in all of Europe and 8 million survived the war. That leaves 3 million that died, 2 million of semi natural causes albeit related to internment. To give you an idea of scale, there are presently 7 million Jews in the USA. I don't see the figure being that high for European extermination. There are no such records. More where probably killed in the German invasion of Russia as the Jewish area of Russia was the South West (the Pale), just inside the European borders. But we know lots retreated from the advancing army. In addition all the cremation ovens going round the clock from 1943 onwards in Poland could not have cremated that many people. (It takes 24 hours to cremate a human body and lots of valuable producer gas. The body is 96% water. Ask any modern day crematorium. In addition you have to get rid of the bones which do not burn. There would have to be traces of piles of 6 million skeletons, but they are not mentioned and have vanished into the thin air of myth. To kill 6 million people from 1943 to 1945, in 730 days they would have had to truck 120 tons of bones per day somewhere in wartime Poland. I doubt that that could have been missed. 90,000 tons of calcium oxide makes a pile. that is 1,150,000 cubic feet compacted but probably double that or 2,308,000 cubic feet. That is a pile 30 feet wide, 20 feet high and a mile and a half long. Hard to hide that. Where did it go? The logistics of bottled gas or pipelines and sources beggars description. It would also be hard to run these operations 24 hours. There is no record in camps of nightime gas deliveries or night labour in this area.) If Zyklon B was used for the deaths, which is doubtful, and again not recorded, the cycle time of deaths would not have allowed that many people to be killed. It would take at least 3 hours to fill, disperse and evacuate the chambers for safety. It is far more likely that Zylon B, an insecticide that creates cyanate gas, was used to delouse already dead people. It makes sense in that there had been 1.4 million deaths from Typhus in the camps prior to 1943, and the Germans were scared of epidemics. The Nuremeberg trials did not indict the Nazis for execution of Jews in the camps. They said a lot about other things like unfair capital trials in Germany, waging aggressive war, and reprisals but little about the camps. This is because the case could not be made definitively with reliable witnesses. How many were killed and how, I cannot say. I will not pick a figure out of the air. To pick something out that cannot be proved or even reliably estimated from strong evidence, perjures the case. I am not saying that these camps were Disneyland day camps. But it is almost impossible between the British wartime propaganda, the very few coherent stories and the complete lack of reliable records to establish anything definitively as to numbers or actual operation. Even William Shirer, in the Decline and Fall or the Third Reich, which is mostly propaganda based, admitted that the most prevalent form of execution used was 22 bullets. These were cheaper, quicker and positive. Why use gas? Shirer published after the war and even he said the "final solution" cabinet meeting of Hitler must be surmised and could not be proven. In other words it is also propaganda. Nowhere is it written what Hitler or Heyderich said in these meetings. Journalists tell us they said "x" but not the source of the quote. Ergo it is not to be believed. EC<:-}

To: Rarebird who wrote (78787)	10/23/2001 6:00:31 PM
From: long-gone	Respond to of 116741

ot here, you need a grin in the worst way! bbspot.com

To: Rarebird who wrote (78787)	3/19/2003 3:24:31 PM
From: long-gone	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116741

Doom & Gloom report: 'Talking fish' stuns New York news.bbc.co.uk A fish heading for slaughter in a New York market shouted warnings about the end of the world before it was killed, two fish cutters have claimed. Zalmen Rosen, from the Skver sect of Hasidic Jews, says co-worker Luis Nivelo, a Christian, was about to kill a carp to be made into gefilte fish in the city's New Square Fish Market in January when it began shouting in Hebrew. "It said 'Tzaruch shemirah' and 'Hasof bah'," Mr Rosen later told the New York Times newspaper. "[It] essentially means [in Hebrew] that everyone needs to account for themselves because the end is nigh." 'It's the devil!' Mr Nivelo told the paper he was so shocked he fell into a stack of slimy packing crates, before running in panic to the shop entrance and grabbing Mr Rosen, shouting: "The fish is talking!" However his co-worker reacted with disbelief. "I screamed 'It's the devil The devil is here!', but Zalman said to me 'You crazy, you a meshugeneh [mad man]!" Mr Nivelo said. A disbelieving Mr Rosen then rushed to the back of the store, only to hear the fish identifying itself as the soul of a local Hasidic man who had died the previous year. It instructed him to pray and study the Torah, but Mr Rosen admitted that in a state of panic he attempted to kill the fish, injuring himself in the process and ending up in hospital. The fish was eventually killed by Mr Nivelo and sold. God in fish form? Many members of the city's Jewish community are now certain that God, troubled by the prospect of war in Iraq, has revealed Himself in fish form. "Two men do not dream the same dream," said Abraham Spitz, a resident who visited Mr Rosen's shop to observe the site of the miracle. "It is very rare that God reminds people he exists in this modern world. But when he does, you cannot ignore it." The incident also relates to the beliefs of some Hasidic Jews, who say that righteous people can be reincarnated as fish, the British Observer newspaper reported. New York story Others are more sceptical, with New York comedians already incorporating the story into their stand-up routines and one fish company even contemplating changing its slogan to "our fish speak for themselves". Mr Rosen also seems to have become rather tired of being questioned about his incredible experience. "Ah, enough already about the fish," Mr Rosen said. "I wish I never said anything about it. I'm getting so many calls every day, I've stopped answering. Israel, London, Miami, Brooklyn... they all want to hear about the talking fish."