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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: LindyBill who wrote (7905)	10/28/2001 11:07:39 AM
From: Poet	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hey Lindy Bill! Been reading you with interest. You sound like a lot of the Professors at the "Peace Rallies" on campus's across the country right now. We have a couple here at the University of Hawaii who are spouting the same "Post Modernist" line. You know, that we are the "oppressive, dominant power structure", and it is "Racist" to regard a free society like America as superior to Third World Dictatorships. The "America haters" that really concern me are teaching on America's own university campuses. They are much more dangerous to us, long term, than the Muslim Terrorists. You appear to be suggesting that Ray is more dangerous than Muslim terrorists. Am I reading this correctly?

To: LindyBill who wrote (7905)	10/28/2001 11:09:20 AM
From: BirdDog	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

... But we are fighting so we can die in the cause of God." ... "There are thousands of the Islamic nation's youths who are eager to die just as the Americans are eager to live."... Notice they make sure that before they fulfill their death wish. They marry at least five wives. Then the wives put out on average 6.8 children a piece (in Afghanistan). Lets say half die. Half are boys. They end up with AT LEAST 7 sons to live on for them. Do you think their attitude would change if their legacy starts getting wiped out along with them? BirdDog

To: LindyBill who wrote (7905)	10/28/2001 8:06:54 PM
From: SirRealist	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Eliminate religion from the equation and little would change. I don't think Ray is arguing the "America=bad" line, but is merely pointing out that it's important to view the underlying motives of our MidEast policies of the past half century, which few will disagree on: controlling the oil. Weighing oil's costs without weighing events of reaction in Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan is not very pragmatic. First off, in consideration of foreign policy, we must define this question: Is the real question how to end terrorist attacks, or... is it to keep on getting all the oil we want while ending terrorist attacks? If the latter is the case, which it seems to be, I would argue that it cannot be done without continued government repression and an acceptance that many folks will have to be killed on an ongoing basis. As I said at the beginning, religion is not the problem. It's merely a force uniting a bunch of p.o.ed people who have miserable lives. There is an underlying sociology present in any population that feels it's getting scraps and sinking fast. Studies of nations undergoing decades of war, or of ghettoes will likely yield common mindsets to what we witness here. If a common population feels stymied in its efforts to civilly move beyond poverty and despair, it will resort to uncivillity and violence. Not because the people are prone to do so out of a weird faith or biological mutation, but because there's nothing important left to lose. Life is precious in advanced societies, but lives of misery are not so precious to the miserable. Fighting at least offers more chance, however miniscule, of success than surrendering, withering and dying does. If we on the advanced side understand this, the choices boil down to exterminating all who fight - an ongoing task till a population is completely decimated (consider Native American Indians) - or looking for an alternative that grants relief to the down&outers. Which Ray argues an alternative energy scenario would aid. As I've long believed. Short term, the necessity of stopping the immediate terrorist threat requires a military solution. But that is temporary. Long term, the review - and change - of our energy policies and its impact on foreign policy remain the only way to continue to claim any title to being civilized and humane. Which I believe is a laudable goal.