Why should anyone oppose Saddam?
Well, here's a fellow who knows Saddam personally - he worked for him - maybe we should consider his opinion better informed than mine or yours:
washingtonpost.com
To Stop Terror, Defang Saddam, Defector Says
Marc Fisher can be reached by e-mail at marcfisher@washpost.com or by phone at (202) 334-7563.
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By Marc Fisher
Thursday, October 11, 2001; Page B01
Khidhir Hamza has just come from the dentist. Now he's sitting in the cafe at a Borders bookstore in a Virginia suburb that I am not allowed to name. He carries nothing dangerous, except his knowledge about how to build a nuclear weapon, which used to be his line of work. In Iraq. For Saddam Hussein. For use against Israel, against the United States, perhaps for a terrorist attack on a place within an hour's drive of where we sit.
Hamza knows too well that if the terrorist network that hit the World Trade Center and the Pentagon has access to nuclear and biological weapons, it is probably through Iraq, through the weapons program that he headed until his escape in 1994.
Hamza is a defector. He's also an American, or is about to be, as soon as his citizenship is approved. In fact, he's been one of us for nearly as long as he was one of them. We trained him, just as we've trained many of the brains behind the nuclear, biological and chemical attacks we now gird ourselves against. Before Saddam forced him back to Baghdad, Hamza went to MIT and taught at Florida State and a small historically black college in Georgia.
"Everything I know, I learned here," he says. "The United States was my second home."
Hamza was leaning toward staying in America, raising a family. But Saddam came calling, threatening to imprison Hamza's father if the young scientist did not bring his talents back home. In the years to come, Hamza would design Iraq's uranium-enrichment and nuclear bomb programs, and travel the world obtaining banned technology from German and American businesses only too happy to accept cash and teach the Iraqis how to smuggle equipment past international inspectors.
Did he believe in what he was doing? Sometimes. Certainly in the Iran-Iraq war, he thought it was necessary to beat back Islamic fundamentalism, to protect the idea of a secular Islamic state, a modern place "where you can enjoy a show, keep your faith in your heart and not see any major conflict in having a couple of drinks or having your wife's hair exposed."
But Saddam's mania for control soon frightened Hamza, who came to dread his face-to-face dealings with the dictator. Saddam, trusting no one, made the stakes quite clear: Hamza was called into a room to watch videotape of some of his colleagues being executed by a firing squad composed of their friends and fellow workers. The nuclear program "got much bigger, no longer just to reach parity with Israel, but to become a major nuclear power."
Hamza believes that to ease the threat of terrorism, the United States must end Saddam's reign, and soon. "Go after the base, not just the guys running around," he says. "Until now, the terrorists were blowing up buildings with explosives. Now you jump to high-level training, highly coordinated planning. This cannot be organized solely from Afghanistan. The main source of weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East is Iraq. And Iraq has the willingness to use these weapons."
A German intelligence report last spring concluded that Iraq will have working nuclear weapons within three years.
Hamza believes that if the United States is serious about undermining the nuclear and chemical warfare capabilities of Iraq and other nations that support terrorism, it must reach out to the scientists, intelligence agents and warriors who are the middle management of terror.
"There is no serious effort to recruit and resettle defectors from that part of the world," he says. "In the Cold War, you reached out to Soviet defectors, and it helped you. Now you must do the same in the Middle East. You trained the nuclear technologists of the entire Third World -- where are the Iraqi and Iranian defectors? All the leaders of the Iraqi program were trained here. They are yours to begin with. They reminisce about their time in the United States, the best years of their lives. Where is your intelligence? These people would love to be brought in, to become Americans."
As his adopted nation waits in anxiety, in this moment of fear and resolve, Hamza disappears into the sun-splashed parking lot and the cacophony of American commerce. He has no bodyguards, no disguise. He says he has never felt safer in his life.
Join me at noon today for "Potomac Confidential" at www.washingtonpost.com/liveonline.
© 2001 The Washington Post Company
Here's a good interview with the same fellow in which he describes what Saddam is like in person:
cnn.com
Khidhir Hamza: Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi weapons program
October 22, 2001 Posted: 3:07 PM EDT (1907 GMT)
Saddam Hussein
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Dr. Khidhir Hamza was educated in the United States, then was deceptively persuaded to return to Iraq by Saddam Hussein, where for over 20 years he was forced to work at developing an atomic weapon. In 1994, he defected to the U.S. Embassy in Hungary. Dr. Hamza now works as a consultant to the U.S. Department of Energy, and is the author of "Saddam's Bomb Maker: The Terrifying Inside Story of the Iraqi Nuclear and Biological Weapons Agenda." Hamza joined the CNN.com chat room to discuss the Iraqi weapons program and Saddam Hussein
CNN: As a nuclear scientist educated at MIT, how did you end up returning to Iraq and working for Saddam Hussein?
HAMZA: I was teaching at Florida State University in 1969 when I was contacted by one of his pointmen here who was enrolled as a student, although he was too old to be a student. He told me that if I don't go back, there could be problems for my family. I was enticed to go back this way.
CNN: How did Hussein intend to use the weapon, once it was completed?
HAMZA: Saddam has a whole range of weapons of mass destruction, nuclear, biological and chemical. The nuclear program is his primary weapon, and that would give him the ability to use the biological and chemical better. According to German intelligence estimates, we expect him to have three nuclear weapons by 2005. So, the window (actually, he's being careful right now), will close by 2005, and we expect him then to be a lot more aggressive with his neighbors and encouraging terrorism, and using biological weapons. Now he's using them through surrogates like al Qaeda, but we expect he'll use them more aggressively then. There could also be the angle of him using nuclear weapons through surrogates also, if he can achieve it.
CHAT PARTICIPANT: Is it possible that Saddam or Iraq is supplying the terrorist with the biological agents that are being found in different parts of our country as well as the world?
HAMZA: I believe he [could be]. There are several points that indicate that the biological agents used are of the more sophisticated kind, and that a state is behind it. The states that produce anthrax and the required specs that can be used to spread the disease widely, say in the powder form, very few states can do that. The others are not U.S. antagonists, like Russia, some of the European countries, and the U.S. So it could only be that Iraq is the state behind supplying that expertise, which is the same thing as producing the anthrax spores. There are also many biologists that inspected the Iraq programs, like Dr. Richard Spertzel, including Richard Butler, the head of ANSCAM. There are several experts, not just me, who have detailed knowledge, who are pointing fingers toward Iraq, too.
CHAT PARTICIPANT: How many Iraqis support Saddam Hussein?
HAMZA: I don't believe many. I think most Iraqis have suffered so long under Saddam, that if there is a supported opposition that can go into Iraq, they will defect to it and go against the regime. That happened in 1991, when Saddam lost 14 of 18 provinces in Iraq. Only the lack of support to the insurrection or rebellion helped Saddam to crush it with his tanks, and the U.S. allowed him to fly military helicopters to crush the insurrection, and he used that opportunity to crush his enemies. We believe now that the situation is even worse, and that Saddam has cut food rations to the north and south. In the north, the UN took over, and started supplying the Kurds with part of the money generated by the oil for food program, so the Kurdish region is a little better off, because of the UN and U.S. assistance.
However, there is no such program in the south, which is the majority of the population, and Saddam already cut rations in the south, especially the rural areas. The Iraqi opposition believes that any small nucleus of army, U.S. trained, will be able to take over in the south, because they're already in a desperate situation. All it needs is U.S. air support to prevent what happened in 1991, and that is Iraqi tanks, Saddam's tanks, and heavy artillery, bombarding the areas of the rebels.
CHAT PARTICIPANT: Did the U.S. succeed in getting rid of many of his weapons over the years the teams were there?
HAMZA: This is a false security. The security of taking a number of equipment from a state and destroying them, leaving the total infrastructure, the knowledge base, the scientist, the military structure intact, only means that the state will just rejuvenate its program, especially a state with huge resources, like Iraq. The whole structure of the biological program is there. What the U.S. destroyed is some of the product, biological agents, some fermenters, and some dryers, which can be replaced very easily, and most of them actually through local engineering capability.
Much of the precision machinery, computer-controlled machines that can machine anything you want, are already there. They were not delivered to the inspectors, so Iraq can easily, and probably already did, remake the destroyed equipment and put them in place, but in different locations than those the inspectors knew. So, we believe it was a false security to just destroy a few pieces of equipment, and take away some of the weaponized agents, and believe that's it. The scientists are there, the agents are there, and most of the infrastructure is there in addition to Saddam's network of purchasing agents and front companies that can smuggle back into Iraq the needed critical parts.
CNN: You were in Iraq for 24 years. Describe personal encounters with Hussein.
HAMZA: I met him a few times, and he is not what he seems on TV. In private, he is an abrupt, overbearing bully. There is not much nice about him in private. All you see is the arrogance of power, in the true sense. He knows that you have to do everything he says, and he's not nice about it. So, one limits encounters, usually. I used to deal with him through his son-in-law, mostly, though despite his reputation of a bloody butcher, he was much nicer to work with in person. He was my boss. [Saddam Hussein] is really the sole dictator, the ultimate power. He's under pressure, he's tired, edgy, nervous. Meeting him is not a pleasure in any sense of the world. He keeps his smiles for TV appearances, and there is nothing nice about him in private.
CHAT PARTICIPANT: If America could just do one thing in Iraq, what would you like see happen?
HAMZA: I would like to see the Iraqi opposition better trained, some two or three thousand persons, trained and sent back into south Iraq, and supported by U.S. Air Force, no U.S. troops, just Air Force, doing what it is doing now, but a little more intensely. By watching Saddam's troop movement and making them stay in their box, is all that's required right now. Just send the Iraqi opposition trained militia, and support them there. That's the only thing we need now. That's the official position right now of the Iraqi opposition, they want to be supported this way, with some resources provided, say food and some equipment. Minimal cost opposition. Much less than is being done in Afghanistan right now, for instance. This way, the U.S. would eliminate the major terrorist government in the Middle East right now, probably the world.
CHAT PARTICIPANT: Who is Saddam's successor?
HAMZA: Saddam's successor right now is designated to be his younger son, Qussay. His oldest son, Uday, has been put aside and relegated to the control of the media. He controls the Iraqi media. He has a newspaper, magazine, and a TV channel. He speaks in the name of the government. Actual control of the special security organization, Saddam's body guards, is now headed by Qussay. Through this, he controls all Iraqi military and intelligence services, and the military industry. So he's in control of the nuclear, biological and chemical weapons programs. He is as vicious as his father, even more if that's possible. He's been doing the actual killing when he goes out on forays against rebellious areas. He surrounds towns, kills everybody. He's been experimenting with all kinds of control mechanisms, such as blockading areas from getting food and supplies. He's doing the real dirty work for the government right now, and it's his government. He's the heir to the throne in Iraq. It's a monarchy of some sort...in reality.
CNN: Do you believe there is any link between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein? If so, should the U.S. resume attacks on Iraq in the name of stopping terrorism?
HAMZA: I think there are several links between Osama and Saddam. The Iraqi ambassador in Turkey, Hajazi, visited Afghanistan, and met with Osama and his associates. He's a powerful figure in Iraq. There are several reported meetings between him and Osama's associates. Osama was sighted in an Iraqi hotel in 1996, by the lawyer for Arkan, the Serbian leader. [Regarding] the reported sighting by the Czech intelligence of Mohammed Atta, and the Iraqi intelligence agent -- to do this meeting, Atta had to drive from Germany and Czechoslovakia, a long drive, meet him, and go back. Which means it was an important meeting for supplies, coordination. It couldn't have been by accident.
Many other meetings were reported between Osama associates and Iraqi intelligence. There are reports by Iraqi defectors of bin Laden's people being trained in Iraqi terrorist camps. They are credible stories, because they don't contradict each other. They confirm each other in types of training, places, the people trained. In a covert operation like this, you don't expect much more information. There will be no smoking gun. All sightings confirm a multi-layered coordination between Saddam and bin Laden, in terms of training, support, and supplies. That could have included anthrax.
CNN: Do you have any closing comments to share with us?
HAMZA: Just that this is the new probably type of war the U.S. will be waging. The U.S. is too powerful to fight directly by terrorists like Saddam. [They] tried once and failed miserably, in the Gulf War. So the efforts and energies of people like Saddam will be channeled to these types of dirty terrorist acts. We believe that the best way to deal with it is eliminating the source, not chasing after the foot soldiers, but not just limited to chasing soldiers. Go to the source. Even in Afghanistan, the U.S. goal should be to remove the Taliban group that supported bin Laden, and get a new government, and not leave the situation unresolved.
CNN: Thank you for joining us today
HAMZA: Thank you very much.
Khidhir Hamza joined the chat room via telephone from Virginia and CNN.com provided a typist. The above is an edited transcript of the interview on Monday, October 22, 2001 at 1 p.m. EDT. |
