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Politics : Islam, The Message -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: AmericanVoter who wrote (209)	11/14/2001 2:12:58 AM
From: mrstevenson	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 758

Dear Mr. Alsuezi: I thank you for your kind response. You have indicated in your post that +++++ Mr. Stevenson, I know and understand the basic teachings of Islam… I do not know the reasons behind all the verses of the Holy Qur’an… With all due respect, you seem to imply that you do follow every single verse in Quran Eventhough you do not know the reasons behind them. In other words, you have made up your mind about everything there is in the holly Quran even though you may not know the reasons for some of its teachings that may not make sense in this day and age. Therefore what would be the difference between you and the Talibans, or Osama Ben Ladin? If you truly think about it they do also believe in Quran and have followed it as it has told them to do. Except they seem to be selective in following certain verses in Quran as oppose to others (and I agree that they seem to ignore applying the proper context to those verses). However, when you say you do not know the reasons behind every verse in Quran, and yet you believe in them, you are in essence saying that whatever Quran says you will follow blindly without thinking about its consequences for which Quran does have a reason for every verse that is Godly, and therefore it is OK Eventhough you do not know those reasons. I will, with your permission, point out certain verses in the following post. Those verses are taken directly from the valid source links you have provided in your introduction post to this thread. You have indicated that ++++my goal here is an attempt to clear misrepresentations of Islam by providing links to reliable resources… With your permission in the next following posts. I will point out some questions/issues I have in studying Islam using the reliable resources you have provided and I appreciate it very much if you would could elaborate on them. You have indicated that ++++ Mr. Stevenson… I consider myself not to know much about Islam… far less than what would qualify me to mentor others about it… I simply prefer to refer people to what I would consider reliable sources as opposed to getting into answering questions I consider myself not qualified to answer to begin with… I know that certain verses were revealed for specific reasons addressing specific situations… and others are meant to guide a Muslims behavior… that is different than saying how a verse is meant to be used… and no, I did not look into the reasons of every verse of the Holy Qur’an. As I expressed I have studied the resources you have provided. I will, in the next few posts, point out some questions I have with regard to some specific verses in Quran. I tried very hard to find a reason behind them using the links and resources you have provided, however no success. I would appreciate it greatly if you could refer to the same resources you have provided and investigate if you could elaborate and provide an answer to my questions/issues. Sincerely, Mr. S. Stevenson

To: AmericanVoter who wrote (209)	11/14/2001 2:18:06 AM
From: mrstevenson	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 758

Dear Mr. Alsuezi: With your permission, I looked at your posts on this board and other boards on Islam responding to a questions asked of you with regard to the following Verses in Quran (4:34). I have taken its full translation from the first link you have provided in your introduction post at iiasa.org . If you go to the aforementioned link (that you have provided and I am thankful to you for that), and click on the icon labeled The Holly Quran, it pops up a window that contains the entire translation of Quran. You can then click on the icon that says View by title, and then click on verse #4 (Women), and the from there you can go to 4:34: It says (and I have cut and pasted the text from that translation): Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. I then went to Webster dictionary (on line) at webster.com and typed in the word Scourge to find its meaning, and it says the following: Main Entry: scourge Pronunciation: 'sk&rj also 'skOrj, 'skorj, 'skurj Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French escorge, from (assumed) Old French escorgier to whip, from Old French es- ex- + Latin corrigia whip Date: 13th century 1 : WHIP; especially : one used to inflict pain or punishment 2 : an instrument of punishment or criticism 3 : a cause of widespread or great affliction I then tried very hard to find a context in Quran in which this can be implied in order to avoid misinterpreting it out of context. Yet, I failed to find any meaningful context that can be referred to positively for interpretation purposes. I then read you comments on this particular verse, and you have implied the following: 1) The beating (or scourge is not meant to be harsh, and it is a rather mild punishment. I have 2 problems with this response: a) Based on the translation (which is done by the very source you have provided) and what Webster has defined scourfe is rather meant to imply ”Harsh” beating punishment. b) Why Quran does not provide the same right to women to inflict punishment on their husband? It seems Quran only addresses men, and not the women, and views them as objects to be controlled by the men. 2) You have also responded by stating that because men are the head of the households and are the providers, they have the right to be the judge as how their wife (or wives) behave under the Islamic laws. In other words, the aforementioned verse is to be used by men if – and only if their wife (or wives) do not follow and behave properly according to Islam. With all due respect I have the following problems with this response: a) Why Quran thinks men are the better judge of how Islamic laws are to be followed than women? Why is it that men have the right to judge what the proper behavior is under Quran and Islam? Why is it that women can not judge their husband in the same manner ? It is as if Quran has given men the right to decide what the proper interpretation of verses and rules of Islam ought to be, and not the women. Finally, it is claimed that Quran’s verses are meant to be for all ages and time till eternity. I can understand that 1400 years ago in the middle of Arabian desert women may not have had any rights and may have been treated like an animal, or a pet, and in effect Islam gave restored their rights and liberated them by such verses as the aforementioned verse. However, I fail to see how this particular verse can be viewed as something that can be applied till eternity arrives. I am sure you do agree that if any man for example in this country makes an attempt to follow this verse, he could be placed under arrest for wife abuse. You may refer to the resources you have provided in your introduction post ( as I did) and see if you can succeed more than I did in finding a context and/or reason(s) to justify the verse. If you could elaborate and respond to the questions (point-by-point as expressed) I will be thankful beyond I can possibly express. Sincerely, Mr. Stevenson

To: AmericanVoter who wrote (209)	11/14/2001 2:28:06 AM
From: mrstevenson	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 758

Dear Mr. Alsuezi: Using the same translation resource that you have provided in your introduction post (as indicated in my previous post) I also have some questions regarding the advocation of violence and brutality in Islam as indicated by the following verses in Quran (again taken from the link source you have provided). Again I tried very hard to look for a context in which these verses are meant to be applied and yet failed to do so. In essence what these verses promote is to violate anyone who does not agree with what Islam promotes with respect to believing in God, or other rules of the Islamic faith. One may not believe in Islam, or God for that matter, and may even worship an idol, but yet he may be a good human being and as a human being he has the right to worship and exercise his faith (whatever it maybe ) as it pleases him. yet the following verses seem to imply otherwise. 002.191 PICKTHAL And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 002.193 PICKTHAL And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. 009.005 PICKTHAL Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Again if you could go to the same links you have provided in your introduction post and point me in the right direction as well as elaborating on these verses I appreciate that very much. Sincerely, Mr. S. Stevenson