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Politics : Islam, The Message -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: AmericanVoter who wrote (233)11/17/2001 11:40:39 AM
From: mrstevenson  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 758
 
Mr. Alsuezi:

It is with regret that after spending so much of my time trying to express in detail and in a logical reasonable fashion what my questions were, you do not even bother reading my posts and come up with some superficial illogical explanation of matters that make absolutely no sense.

I do not need to know how you respect me and my discussion with you when for example you say:

+++++I do not know what “scourge” means, but will take your word for it…

Your above statement is a proof that you either think I am so naïve and so stupid, or you genuinely want to hear what you like to hear and nothing else!

What I reference in my post (http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=16654287) regarding Quran promoting/advising men of wife beating, was taken word-by-word from the very first resource link you have provided in your introduction post on this very same thread – so it was not something I came up with.

Secondly I provided the link to the Webster Dictionary online (in that very same post) for you to seek out the meaning of the word “scourge” for yourself, and in fact I cut and pasted the exact meaning as it appeared in Webster for you in my post to read. This was done so you do not have to take my word for it for which it is Webster (the ultimate authority in the English language) that has defined it.

I do not need to go any further for which you do not even follow your own advice to others to read to better understand matters, and yet you expect others to read – and interestingly you only want people to read only those words that you would like them to read!

You ask people to read so they could understand about Islam better? What other valuable resource than Quran to better understand the religion. Yet you – a believer and defender of the Islamic faith – admittedly has no clue what Quran talks about, and when you are confronted with what Quran says that does not make sense, you dismiss it as being the word of God that you do not wish to question!!

I have nothing more to discuss with you for which you are: blindly following something (namely Islam) that you have no clue what it is about. You admittedly have no idea what Quran says, Eventhough you as a escape goat and in order to blindly defend the violence and evil acts that are attributed to Islam, continue to tell people to go ahead and read, and yet you – yourself – are not willing to read Quran (or for that matter the very same so called valuable resources on Islam that you have provided in your introduction post!. What do you think people are? So stupid? Hardly Mr. Alsuezi.

You keep telling others and me that you have addressed the wife beating ad vocation that is done in Quran, or the promotion of killing and destruction of non-Moslems that is encouraged in Quran. But why don’t you read your own explanations? No intelligent (or otherwise) individual on this planet is so blind to accept your explanations as anything but just babbling and trying to hide.

For God’s sake, and as I indicated, you do not need to be defensive about your religion, just admit it as it is. I have to give it to you that you have in fact admitted the fact that Quran does for example promote wife beating, and your explanation is that it is God’s wisdom that you do not wish to question. This is a start for you to accept the truth – the whole truth – and nothing but the truth, instead of trying to dance around it!

I do not think I will post anymore comments to you for which I believe it would be a waste of my time. Your responses are indeed typical of every Moslem I have come to meet. You people are like the followers of Jim Jones. You do not think for yourself, and do not wish to use your God given intellect to distinguish between the right and wrong. Instead you follow verses in Quran – without asking why – even if those verses end up inflicting pain, destruction and death to millions of innocent people on this planet. In a sense Islam is like a hard-core military cult and its followers – as they admit – are soldiers of this military. The generals consist of a handful of murderers and thugs calling themselves Mullahs, and the politicians in this militaristic framework consist of academia who under the umbrella of appearing as educated individuals reflect the voices of the Mullahs in a politically correct fashion.

I leave you with this thought, Mr. Alsuezi, it is the month of Ramazan. During this month a Moslem is supposed to be honest to himself and others. Be honest with yourself – if not no one else – and ask yourself, is what you are following a peaceful loving ideology? Ask yourself why Quran promotes wife beating? Why it even talks about killing and destruction of non- Moslems in the most horrific manner? Try to read Quran from beginning to the end during this month of Ramazan. Do what you have been telling others to do: Read about Islam, and there is not better source than Quran.

At the end if you still want to keep your eyes closed to the realities of Islam, then so be it. You have submitted yourself to Islam’s way of life. So do not be defensive about it. As a human being it is your right to live how you desire to do so. If the religion says that a Moslem man should beat his wife if she is not obeying him the way he wants her to do, then so be it. This is what the religion and faith says. You (and other Moslems) need not be defensive about it. If there are verses in Quran that says it is the duty of Moslems to kill and destroy non-Moslems then so be it. This is what the faith says. You as a Moselm should not be defensive about it.

The color of a red rose is red. No matter what happens that color remains red. One who likes a red rose (and perhaps for its smell and not necessarily its color), should not be defensive about its color being Red. One should not defend the red color of a red rose as being a dark orange, or a light purple, or a combination of yellow and Orange and Purple! There is nothing-wrong with a Red Rose being Red. It is just the way it is!

Should you decide to logically and completely read my post (and those indicated in the following post) word-by-word Message 16668209 and provide an intelligent response point-by-point we will continue our discussion, otherwise, do not waste your time responding to me. If you would like you can even go ahead and block me from your thread too as you have done so to many others. It is not I who is not seeking the truth, it is you who has oppressed his soul to seek out the truth. I will pray for you so God would help you use his gift of intellect to you in order to distinguish between the right and the wrong, and to seek the truth – the whole truth – and nothing but the truth.

Sincerely,

Mr. S. Stevenson



To: AmericanVoter who wrote (233)11/17/2001 12:14:43 PM
From: Zeev Hed  Respond to of 758
 
Amein, I have a question, you might have an answer to. The Quran, like many antique books, has been copied over and over many times over the last 1400 years. Are there any comparative studies of recent versions of the Quran and very old one? The old testament has definitive "signs" within it that shows that different parts were written by different people (and even within a single book such stylish differences exists), and until it "was officially" signed off (so that no alterations or errors are allowed by scribes, from there on, a late event), errors or modifications did occur. I wonder if a similar process occurred with the Quran and if it had a "final" version that differ somewhat from the very early versions.

My understanding is that the Quran indeed has "differing styles", with the short surah's (last in the Quran, but probably early in adoption into the Quran), are extremely strong, "concentrated" and poetic, while the long surah's (like surah 12, the story of Joseph), being much more prosaic and less condensed. I wonder if scholars have attempted an etymological study. I understand that Muslim clergy considers such a study to be heresy, since the Quran is supposed to be the purest form of Arabic, but there is no denying that foreign words, from Syriac, Arameic, Greek and Hebrew have been included. For Instance, the term "Iblis", or the Devil is clearly a variant of the Greek Diabolos. Or the word for "law" (Taurat), clearly comes from the Hebrew "Torah". Similarly, the term for "faith", or "belief" is amana and is clearly derived from"emuna" in Hebrew. Hey even the word "surah" has Hebrew origins (shura in Hebrew means a line and "shira" is poetry).

Zeev



To: AmericanVoter who wrote (233)11/17/2001 11:18:45 PM
From: Zeev Hed  Read Replies (5) | Respond to of 758
 
Amein, relative to the possibility of "contamination" of the Quran by later writers not having the divine words directly from the lord. Not only it took 20 years after Muhamed death for the first version of the Quran t be written, but like Hebraic old writings, only consonants are were used and many of these with possible multiple meanings, if diacriticals were not present in the originals. Here is something that was PM'd to me by a cyberfriend that was aparently banned from posting here:

Dear Friends,

May you allow me to share with you this short study on the grammatical problems in the Arabic text of the Quran.
The English reader may not fully recognize the importance of diacritical points in the Arabic language. We will cover this in our study. To begin, it must be emphasized (as has been done) that the Quran was originally written in the Arabic language WITHOUT DIACRITICAL POINTS, as this was the nature of Arabic writings at the inception of Islam. The diacritical points were added to the text of the Quran many years after what is called the "Divine Inspiration" of the Quran. So, many years passed seeing a Quran without diacritical points. The importance of this fact will be adequately recognized as we study the relationship of the diacritical points to the Arabic language.

In the many examples that follow, you will see that the addition or subtraction of diacritical points RADICALLY
ALTERS the meaning of the entire text. Therefore, those men who added the diacritical points to the Quran long after it was first written assumed the responsibility of interpreting the entire book, and were in the position to change and rewrite anything that they did not agree with. This occurrence is unique to Islam and its holy book. The Bible is widely available in its original texts, both Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, for any and all who want to research it. To read the Quran as it was originally written would leave the reader to interpret and choose for themselves from the thousands of possible meanings available in the Arabic when it is without diacritical points.

We begin by looking closely at the nature of several Arabic words and how the diacritical points change their
meanings. The English word "girl" in Arabic is "bent". The Arabic word "bent" is composed of three letters which are "Ba", "non", and "Ta". When these three letters are written connected to each other without the diacritical points they will appear quite identical. They will look like three adjacent crescents facing upwards. The difference between them is nothing. Only the diacritical points can differentiate between them. Here is how it works:

If you put one point below any one of them, it's "Ba"
If you put two points below any one of them, it's "ya"
If you put one point above any one of them, it's "non"
If you put two points above any one of them, it's "Ta"
If you put three points above any one of them, it's "Tha"
Therefore one can imagine the multitude of possible alternatives that could arise from the varying arrangements of
diacritical points on each of the three letters. Many of these alternatives are meaningful. For example:

1. If you put one point below the first, one above the second, two above the third, it's "bent" which translates as "girl" in English.
2. If you put one point below the first, two points below the second, two above the third, it's "Bayt" which translates as "home" in English.
3. If you put two points below the first, one below the second, and two above the third, it's "yabet" which translates as "he makes a decision" in English.
4. If you put one point above the first, one below the second and two above the third, it's "nabat" which translates as "was planted" in English.
5. If you put one point below the first, two below the second and one above the third, it's "Bayn" which translates as "between" in English.
6. If you put one point below the first, three points above the second and two points above the third, it's "Bathat"
which translates as "she broadcast" in English.
7. If you put two points below the first, one below the second, and three above the third, it's "yaboth" which translates as "he broadcast" in English.
8. If you put two points above the first, two points below the second, one point above the third, it's "teen" which
translates as "figs" in English.
9. If you put two points above the first, one below the second, and one point above the third, it's "tebn" which
translates as "hay" in English.
10. If you put three points above the first, one below the second, two above the third, it's "thabbat" which translates as "strengthens" in English.
11. If you put three above the first, one above the second and two above the third, it's "thanat" which translates as
"shy bent" in English.
12. If you put two above the first, one above the second, one below the third, it's "tannob" which translates as "to
prevent" in English.
13. If you put two points below the first, three above the second, and one below the third, it's "yatheb" which
translates as "he jumps" in English.
14. If you put one point above the first, three above the second and one below the third, it's "natheb" which translates as "we jump" in English.
15. If you put one point above the first, one below the second and three above the third, it's "nabath" which translates as "utters few letters" in English.

The list could go on. The number of Arabic letters that need diacritical points are 22 out of a total 28 Arabic letters. They are "Ba, ta, Tha, Geem, Ha, Kha, Dal, Zal, Ra, Zeen, Seen, Sheen, Sad, dzad, Ta, dza, 'ein, ghein, Fa, Gaf, non, and ya when it is the first or middle letter in a word". 22 letters out of 28 have no possible sound without diacritical points!! Remember, the Quran was first written without any diacritical points on these 22 letters!!

OTHER VOCALIZATION MARKS AFFECT MEANINGS
The second important point is: In addition to the diacritical points, there are other forms of vocalization marks that
change the pronunciation and the meaning of the given word. These marks are Damma, Fathha, kassra, shadda,
scoon, madda, and other less important marks. They are put above or below the letter to affect its pronunciation.
Please realize that the same word will vary in its pronunciation and meaning according to the positioning of these
marks. For example:

1. The same form of the word "bent" (A girl in English) will become "banat" by putting "Fathha" on the second letter, which means "she built" in English.
2. The same form of the word "bayn" (between in English) will become "bayan" if we add "shadda" on the first and
the second letters, which means "He manifests" in English.
3. The same form of the word "Bayt" (home in English) will become "bayat" if we add "shadda" on the second letter, which means "he intends" in English.
4. The same form of the word "nabath" (utters some letters) will become "naboth" if we add "shadda" to the second letter, which means "we broadcast" in English.
5. The same form of the word "nabat" (was planted) will become "nabot" if we add "shadda" to the second letter,
which means "we make a decision" in English.

Therefore even after adding diacritical points above and below the Arabic letters, the meaning of the word will not be explicit with certainty except after adding the vocalization marks. Both the diacritical points and the vocalization
marks were not used in the ancient Arabic writings of the pre-, post-, and Quranic period. For a matter of simplification to the English reader, you may ponder the difference between (to & too) (too & two) (girls & girl's) (its & it's), although in Arabic things are even more complicated.

After this hurried analysis of the formulation of Arabic words, it may become clear to the reader to what extent the
words will be meaningless without these points and marks. And that any attempt to add these diacritical points and vocalization marks to non-punctuated text of the Quran may result in countless numbers of readings.

This is the language in which the Quran was first written and we can imagine the enormity and scope of the
problems that faced the later Muslims, many years after the early beginning of Islam, when they started putting
diacritical points and vocalization marks on every letter in the Quran. They may have been experts in the Arabic
language, experts in Arabic grammar, but they definitely did not receive Divine Inspiration to guard them against
making mistakes, or to ensure that the original wordings and meanings of the Quran were unchanged.

These ideas that have drawn my attention are not merely an offensive attitude against the Quran. No. There is a very explicit example that manifests the dangers of the issue under discussion. There is a Quranic verse that states: "ALM Sabbeh Raboka Al Azzaam", which translates as: "ALM praise your glorified God". We ask the question what is ALM? Nobody answers. The scholars say it's just a divine symbol that has no definite meaning and it should be accepted as such. In an attempt to explain it some claim that it may be a part of the succeeding word "Sabbeh" which translates as "praise", but then the formulation of the sentence will not be grammatically correct. If we remembered the previous facts about the diacritical points and apply them to this verse we shall find that the letter "Ba" in the word "ALM saBBeh" was originally not punctuated. So, it may be "Ba" if one point is put below it, or it may be "ya" if you add a second point below it. This second point below the letter "Ba" would only slightly change the form of the sentence but it would radically change the meaning 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Changing this one letter would turn the whole story, history, and faith of Islam upside down! Do you know why? Let's read the sentence after adding just one point below the letter "Ba", changing it into "ya". The sentence will be, "ALMsyyh Raboka Al 'Azzaam." Just this one diacritical point will turn over the entire Islamic religion because the sentence now means:

THE CHRIST IS YOUR GLORIFIED GOD!!!

Remember, the original Quranic language was not punctuated. Punctuation was added later by non-divinely inspired laymen who were fluent in the Arabic language and nothing more. This confession is very logic for us, the Christians. But if this was the confession of Muhammad and his Quran, what would then be the outcome? Ponder, think, then decide. It is fascinating to consider that the story of the Quran can be given a completely different direction and the history and religion of Islam can be turned over by just one diacritical point. Only one point can turn the entire Islamic world upside down. Not one Muslim scholar, teacher or Mullah in the entire world can attest to the presence or absence of this little point in the original text of the Quran before Muslims started to punctuate it. Oh God, just one diacritical point can vanquish an entire religion with its holy book and prophet.

Zeev



To: AmericanVoter who wrote (233)11/18/2001 2:37:20 PM
From: mr_stevenson  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 758
 
I, once again, challenege Amein Alsuezi to release his political prisoners!! (i.e the people whom he has blocked from posting on this thread).

Truth can never be oppressed nor distorted.

If you truly and genuinely believe in Islam as being the truth - the whole truth and nothing but the truth - then what do you have to worry about? Let people of all minds speak their thoughts. Truth shall always prevail, and you should have nothing to worry about. So why are you paranoid, and what are you worrying about?!

The very first line of the introduction post made by Mr. Alsuezi to this thread states the following:

"I am creating this thread to serve as a resource for information about Islam and to try to shed some light on some verses in The Holy Qur'an. In particular, verses that have been taken out of context or translated in a twisted manner."

It then provides some resources for the reader to study. Well we have done so, and here are some questions that have already been asked and no intelligent response as of yet - (and in the process the people who have questioned them have been blocked from posting to this threade)!!!

Message 16654287

Message 16654298

Message 16583729