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To: Oeconomicus who wrote (134879)	11/17/2001 8:50:43 PM
From: craig crawford	Respond to of 164684

i'll make you a deal. you refute my arguments first and then i will waste my time on yours. you and skeeter love to say that i avoid the issues and questions or fail to support my arguments yet all i get is flippant remarks from the both of you. both of you are fond of saying "prove it". then when i take the time to do that you just quietly fade away and ignore my requests for you to do the same. well i'm not going to go out of my way catering to your demands for proof anymore when you fail to reciprocate.

To: Oeconomicus who wrote (134879)	11/17/2001 11:36:44 PM
From: craig crawford	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 164684

here is the answer to your individual liberty above country viewpoint. "There can be no liberty unless the moral foundation of liberty is safeguarded. We can dismiss many of the casual uses of the metaphor of war as overblown but the preservation of our national understanding that liberty is for the sake of justice is most literally a vital national interest. As the Declaration makes clear, our struggle for freedom from external constraint must be understood as flowing from a deeper truth -- that we are obliged by our very nature to seek to accomplish the will of our Creator and to order the instruments we need, including government and its limitations, so we may do that will. Cut-off from this deeper understanding, the struggle for liberty is merely the petulant demands of a talking beast." .......................................................................... A free people must understand what freedom is. And in our present situation the law must not be permitted to contribute to the widespread confusion of liberty with licentiousness. Liberty is not an abstract right to do whatever we feel like without regard to the consequences. It especially does not mean this in those areas where the consequence of abuse is to destroy liberty. If we want to hold on to liberty, then we must limit those abuses that will destroy it. We can't have it both ways. This means that at some level, in the laws of a free society, limits must be set which respect the requirements of freedom. and lincoln on habeous corpus... "Real wars, in so far as they do present a genuine threat to the survival of the country, do indeed sometimes require extraordinary suspensions of civil liberties." Drug war threatens U.S. worldnetdaily.com