SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Right Wing Extremist Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: PROLIFE who wrote (20361)11/18/2001 9:43:07 PM
From: calgal  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 59480
 
Prolife:

Yes, we win!



To: PROLIFE who wrote (20361)11/19/2001 1:40:38 AM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 59480
 
Hi PROLIFE; What does a mark "on the forehead or on the hand" have to do with national identity cards?

National identity cards would be carried in the wallet, or shown, no one would put one on their "forehead". The mark that is described in revelation seems to me to be like a cattle brand or a tattoo, where people are distinguished according to whether they've been branded or not. It has only (the usual) vague similarities to an identity card.

There's a tendency through history for all people to interpret the Bible's more mysterious passages in ways that apply to their contemporary situation. I have no doubt that 1000 years ago they were interpreting the "mark of the beast" in some other way, and that 1000 years from now they'll still be interpreting it, but in some new way we can't imagine.

Using the Bible for predicting the future is a bad idea, but one which has been done over and over and over. Eventually the predictions become obviously false, and that reduces faith in God.

I don't think it is for us to be able to make predictions based on His words. If we were saintly, perhaps we could interpret these complicated words correctly, but we're not. To try to predict the future based on hidden language in the Bible seems to me to approach blasphemy.

Here's another interpretation, one I find more reasonable, BWTHDIK:

The mark of the beast.
v16 - He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead - As well as forcing people to worship the image he also forces everyone to receive a mark on the hand or forehead. This mark is on the hand or forehead and is therefore conspicuous, it is not hidden. He had great power over all classes of society, note the three couplets giving six in all: small and great, rich and poor, free and slave. Contrast this mark on the hand or forehead with God's command to the Israelites in Deu 6.8 to 'Tie them (the commandments) as symbols on your hands (meaning strength i.e. actions) and bind them on your foreheads (i.e. mind)'. It is also a parody of God's deliverance from bondage in Egypt, only it is enslavement, (the Passover observance) see Exo 13:1-16 'And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand'. But the Christians do not receive the mark (Rev 20:4). This mark is a parody of the sealing of God's servants in Rev 7:2, who have the name of the Lamb and his Fathers name written on their foreheads Rev 14:1. As the elect are sealed upon their foreheads to escape the destruction about to fall upon the earth, so the followers of the beast escape his wrath against the church by bearing his mark (Mounce). The mark affects their action (hand) and thinking (forehead), it identifies those who worship the beast.

The mark (Gr. charagma) must not be taken literally as in most of John's imagery. The mark received is a parody or counterfeit to the seal received by the children of God, see Rev 14:1, this seal is not a visible seal. They have the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads, if we do not take this as a literal mark then it is likely that the mark of the beast is not a literal mark. Here it is described in v17 'the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name' which is identified as 666 in verse 18. It is closely linked to those who worship the beast and his image, it marks them as his (the beast's). It is received on the forehead meaning their mind or on the hand meaning their actions i.e. anyone who follows the philosophy or who carries out the actions of the beast. The characteristics of those so marked is described in Rev 21:8, also Rev 22:15, everyone who loves (mark on the forehead) and practises falsehood (mark on the hand). From Rom 12:1 those who worship the beast are those who are conformed to the pattern of this world (worldly) and are not renewed in their mind, they do not obey the will of God. The mark can mean ownership, devotion, acceptance of the authority of the beast, just as the seal of God marks out those who are His, so the mark of the beast marks out those who are his. Not only cattle but slaves were branded as a mark of ownership. Perhaps John is also thinking of the marks of the cross that Jesus bore on his hands and the marks caused by the crown of thorns. Those who receive this mark are going to be punished along with the beast (Rev 14:9-11, 19:20). Those who worship the beast and his image and those who receive the mark of his name are the same (4:11). The saints are those who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands (20:4). The saints are those who worship God (11:1), obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus (14:12).

Barclay has the following comments on the mark: The word for the mark of the beast is charagma, and it could come from more than one ancient custom.

i. Sometimes domestic slaves were branded with the mark of their owner. But usually they were branded only if they had run away or had been guilty of some grave misdemeanour. Such a mark was called a stigma; we still use the word in English. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast are his property. Note: the word used for servants in Revelation means slaves [of Christ] so in the same way those marked by the beast are his slaves or servants.

ii. Sometimes soldiers branded themselves with the name of their general, if they were very devoted to him. This to some extent, corresponds to the modern custom of tattooing upon one's person the name of someone specially dear. If the mark is connected to this, it means that those who worship the beast are his devoted followers.

iii. On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma, a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority. Note: this could also be the seal of ownership.

iv. All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.

v. When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.

The only other NT use of the word for mark (charagma) apart from Revelation is in Acts 17:29 where Paul speaks to the men of Athens "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image (charagma) made by man's design and skill.' Paul is contrasting idols with the living God who made the world and everything in it see Acts 17:24 cf. Rev 14:7. We should note then the close connection between the mark and worshipping the image (13:15) which is an act of idolatry cf. 2:14, 2:20, 9:20, 21:8, 22:15, therefore receiving the mark means being marked as an idolater.
...
...

apocalipsis.org

-- Carl



To: PROLIFE who wrote (20361)11/19/2001 5:41:52 AM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 59480
 
But we already all have numbers on our Social Security cards. Are you telling me that devout Christians don't have Social Security numbers?