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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (11125)	11/22/2001 12:17:48 AM
From: MSI	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

It is said that morality among individuals exists among the laws of their nation and community, and that morality among nations exists in a lawless environment, and so isn't the same. Even if you believe that, it would be the highest of crimes for any group supposedly considering itself an ally of the US to fail to warn of specific information of such a catastrophe -- even if it meant withdrawing and replacing an asset. That's true whether the Israeli Mossad or if your claim of Churchill's inaction. As far as Israel, we have no use for them, nor for any of these insane countries in the M.E. that need to solve their own problems. If Israel were to dissolve completely, or if the royals of Saudi Arabia were to be overthrown, all of the hysterical claims of how dangerous that is to US interests would die down, as the extent of their corruption of the US became known.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (11125)	11/22/2001 12:23:48 AM
From: marcos	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Programme called 'The First Afghan War' beginning now on CBC radio 690am Vancouver ... Lister Sinclair, re-broadcast from early eighties ... i remember hearing it then, quite well done, they dug deep into the 1840s records and letters 'we gave* them 50 much needed destroyers (old that they were)' The US had drained Britain of the great majority of its gold by around that time or shortly thereafter ... and then 'provided them unlimited credit*' ... heh heh ... yeah i guess that is how they phrase it in US schoolbooks ... to their everlasting honour, several thousands US nationals wandered north and signed up as 'canadians' early on, hundreds in September and October 1939 alone .... twenty-seven long months later, many of them were quietly transferred to US units and never prosecuted for violating US law in such a way .... when young men of conscience were avoiding the order to make war on the peasants of Indochina some years later, we remembered that ... plus we sort of liked the music of the latter - arlo.net Happy Thanksgiving to all in the US ... cheers

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (11125)	11/22/2001 12:34:14 AM
From: DavesM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawkmoon, I have some serious reservations with your hypothesis. First my understanding is that the United States had already broken the Japanese codes themselves. Thus were privy to just as much coded information as the British. Second, the British had their own problems (just a serious) with the Japanese the same time as the Americans. Just because you know something may happen, doesn't mean that the correct steps are taken (for instance US Army fighter aircraft parked together in the center of airfields). A little history that I found at the worldwar-2.net website: The United States was already siding with the British against Germany, loaning them military aircraft and ships, by August of 1941, US Navy was patroling N. Atlantic convoy routes. In September, 1941, the U.S. took over convoying British ships as far as Iceland. By October, shots are being fired between American and Germans naval vessels. And in November, the United States Naval ships captures a German blockade runner. Nov 10, 1941 Churchill tells Japan, that war against the U.S, means war against Britain Nov 24, 1941 U.S army commanders Across the Pacific are warned of possible imminence of war. Nov 27, 1941 U.S. Pacific forces are put on war alert. Dec 1, Malay declares a State of Emergency Dec 2, 1941 HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse arrive in Singapore Dec 7, 1941 Japanese attack: Pearl Harbor, Malaya (british), Shanghai, Thailand, Hong Kong (british), and Singapore (british) Dec 8, 1941, Japanese bomb: Philppines, Guam, Wake Island, Dec 10, the British Battleships are sunk (Prince of Wales and Repulse).

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (11125)	11/22/2001 1:38:59 AM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawk, DavesM has the most complete knowledge of the chain of events leading up to 12/7/41. The attack was no surprise to FDR. He was well aware of the contents of the "purple" Japanese diplomatic code, though the evidence that we had broken the Japanese military code at the time is not as convincing. There was, additionally, irrefutable proof that triangulation was done on the errant radio traffic emanating from the Japanese attack fleet on its approach cruise by our Signal Corps. The information being suppressed and kept from the staff in Pearl. A fascinating battle has been fought for the last 60 years by the heirs of Admiral Kimmel users.erols.com , who was the designated scapegoat for Pearl Harbor. He was instructed by Washington to keep the fleet in port and, in the event, provide the best possible target that we could. Some believe FDR saw this as one of the only ways to overcome the isolationist elements of the Congress. Realpolitik.