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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 10:23:16 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 82486
 
Here is something "rather medieval" (Chartres):

data2.artifice.com



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 10:26:15 AM
From: Neocon  Respond to of 82486
 
Another thing that is "rather medieval":

The General Prologue

1: Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
2: The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
3: And bathed every veyne in swich licour
4: Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
5: Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
6: Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
7: Tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
8: Hath in the ram his halve cours yronne,
9: And smale foweles maken melodye,
10: That slepen al the nyght with open ye
11: (so priketh hem nature in hir corages);
12: Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,
13: And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes,
14: To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
15: And specially from every shires ende
16: Of engelond to caunterbury they wende,
17: The hooly blisful martir for to seke,
18: That hem hath holpen whan that they were seeke.
19: Bifil that in that seson on a day,
20: In southwerk at the tabard as I lay
21: Redy to wenden on my pilgrymage
22: To caunterbury with ful devout corage,
23: At nyght was come into that hostelrye
24: Wel nyne and twenty in a compaignye,
25: Of sondry folk, by aventure yfalle
26: In felaweshipe, and pilgrimes were they alle,
27: That toward caunterbury wolden ryde.
28: The chambres and the stables weren wyde,
29: And wel we weren esed atte beste.
30: And shortly, whan the sonne was to reste,
31: So hadde I spoken with hem everichon
32: That I was of hir felaweshipe anon,
33: And made forward erly for to ryse,
34: To take oure wey ther as I yow devyse.
35: But nathelees, whil I have tyme and space,
36: Er that I ferther in this tale pace,
37: Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun
38: To telle yow al the condicioun
39: Of ech of hem, so as it semed me,
40: And whiche they weren, and of what degree,
41: And eek in what array that they were inne;
42: And at a knyght than wol I first bigynne.



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 10:34:29 AM
From: Lane3  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 82486
 
What is the overriding ethical problem with cloning?

As you know, I can't begin to speak to the concerns of the religious. The pro-life folks are concerned about therapeutic cloning because cloning creates an embryo designed for destruction, which is tantamount to murder. I do not know what their concerns are about reproductive cloning.

I can tell you mine. I'm totally against reproductive cloning for reasons that I've described on this thread before.

First of all, the art of cloning is too imperfect right now to provide more than a remote chance of producing a heathy baby. They went through bunches and bunches of deformed sheep to get to Dolly. I think it's way past ethical or humane to do that to a human baby. Once they perfect cloning in sheep, then we can talk about cloning a baby.

Secondly, once we are able to clone reliably, it seems pretty sick to me to produce a duplicate infant. I would think it inevitable that such a baby would need a live-in shrink practically from birth. I think that's unethical because it's cruel.

Karen



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 10:49:59 AM
From: Neocon  Respond to of 82486
 
Summa Theologiae, Thomas Aquinas

Whether it was useful for laws to be framed by men?

Objection 1: It would seem that it was not useful for laws to be framed by men. Because the purpose of every law is that man be made good thereby, as stated above (Question [92], Article [1]). But men are more to be induced to be good willingly by means of admonitions, than against their will, by means of laws. Therefore there was no need to frame laws.

Objection 2: Further, As the Philosopher says (Ethic. v, 4), "men have recourse to a judge as to animate justice." But animate justice is better than inanimate justice, which contained in laws. Therefore it would have been better for the execution of justice to be entrusted to the decision of judges, than to frame laws in addition.

Objection 3: Further, every law is framed for the direction of human actions, as is evident from what has been stated above (Question [90], Articles [1],2). But since human actions are about singulars, which are infinite in number, matter pertaining to the direction of human actions cannot be taken into sufficient consideration except by a wise man, who looks into each one of them. Therefore it would have been better for human acts to be directed by the judgment of wise men, than by the framing of laws. Therefore there was no need of human laws.

On the contrary, Isidore says (Etym. v, 20): "Laws were made that in fear thereof human audacity might be held in check, that innocence might be safeguarded in the midst of wickedness, and that the dread of punishment might prevent the wicked from doing harm." But these things are most necessary to mankind. Therefore it was necessary that human laws should be made.

I answer that, As stated above (Question [63], Article [1]; Question [94], Article [3]), man has a natural aptitude for virtue; but the perfection of virtue must be acquired by man by means of some kind of training. Thus we observe that man is helped by industry in his necessities, for instance, in food and clothing. Certain beginnings of these he has from nature, viz. his reason and his hands; but he has not the full complement, as other animals have, to whom nature has given sufficiency of clothing and food. Now it is difficult to see how man could suffice for himself in the matter of this training: since the perfection of virtue consists chiefly in withdrawing man from undue pleasures, to which above all man is inclined, and especially the young, who are more capable of being trained. Consequently a man needs to receive this training from another, whereby to arrive at the perfection of virtue. And as to those young people who are inclined to acts of virtue, by their good natural disposition, or by custom, or rather by the gift of God, paternal training suffices, which is by admonitions. But since some are found to be depraved, and prone to vice, and not easily amenable to words, it was necessary for such to be restrained from evil by force and fear, in order that, at least, they might desist from evil-doing, and leave others in peace, and that they themselves, by being habituated in this way, might be brought to do willingly what hitherto they did from fear, and thus become virtuous. Now this kind of training, which compels through fear of punishment, is the discipline of laws. Therefore in order that man might have peace and virtue, it was necessary for laws to be framed: for, as the Philosopher says (Polit. i, 2), "as man is the most noble of animals if he be perfect in virtue, so is he the lowest of all, if he be severed from law and righteousness"; because man can use his reason to devise means of satisfying his lusts and evil passions, which other animals are unable to do.

Reply to Objection 1: Men who are well disposed are led willingly to virtue by being admonished better than by coercion: but men who are evilly disposed are not led to virtue unless they are compelled.

Reply to Objection 2: As the Philosopher says (Rhet. i, 1), "it is better that all things be regulated by law, than left to be decided by judges": and this for three reasons. First, because it is easier to find a few wise men competent to frame right laws, than to find the many who would be necessary to judge aright of each single case. Secondly, because those who make laws consider long beforehand what laws to make; whereas judgment on each single case has to be pronounced as soon as it arises: and it is easier for man to see what is right, by taking many instances into consideration, than by considering one solitary fact. Thirdly, because lawgivers judge in the abstract and of future events; whereas those who sit in judgment of things present, towards which they are affected by love, hatred, or some kind of cupidity; wherefore their judgment is perverted.

Since then the animated justice of the judge is not found in every man, and since it can be deflected, therefore it was necessary, whenever possible, for the law to determine how to judge, and for very few matters to be left to the decision of men.

Reply to Objection 3: Certain individual facts which cannot be covered by the law "have necessarily to be committed to judges," as the Philosopher says in the same passage: for instance, "concerning something that has happened or not happened," and the like.

ccel.org



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 10:57:33 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
Something rather modern:

Unconsciously his instinct will submit to the knowledge that the preservation of the species, even at the cost of the individual life, is a primal necessity and he will protest against the fantasies of pacifist ranters, who in reality are nothing better than cowardly egoists, even though camouflaged, who contradict the laws of human development. For it is a necessity of human evolution that the individual should be imbued with the spirit of sacrifice in favour of the common weal, and that he should not be influenced by the morbid notions of those knaves who pretend to know better than Nature and who have the impudencc to criticize her decrees.

Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler

sunsite.org.uk



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 11:07:12 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
Another rather modern thing:

And the dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously with an immense expansion of democracy, which for the first time becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists. We must suppress them in order to free humanity from wage slavery, their resistance must be crushed by force; it is clear that there is no freedom and no democracy where there is suppression and where there is violence.

Engels expressed this splendidly in his letter to Bebel when he said, as the reader will remember, that "the proletariat needs the state, not in the interests of freedom but in order to hold down its adversaries, and as soon as it becomes possible to speak of freedom the state as such ceases to exist".

Democracy for the vast majority of the people, and suppression by force, i.e., exclusion from democracy, of the exploiters and oppressors of the people - this is the change democracy undergoes during the transition from capitalism to communism.

The State and Revolution, V.I. Lenin

marxists.org



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 11:12:49 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
More modern thought:

The central tenets of logical positivism clearly have serious consequences when applied to moral philosophy. Attributions of value are not easily verifiable, so moral judgments may be neither true nor false, but as meaningless as those of metaphysics. Among the original members of the Vienna Circle, only Moritz Schlick devoted any attention to ethics at all, and he regarded it as the descriptive task of cataloging the ways in which members of a society express their feelings about human behavior of various sorts.

It was the American philosopher C.L. Stevenson who worked out the full implications of postivistic theories for expressions of moral praise or blame. The most vital issue to be considered is the meta-ethical question of what moral terms mean. Although Moore had correctly noted that good cannot be defined simply in terms of the approval of human beings, Stevenson made the even more radical suggestion that moral judgments have no factual content at all. Analysis of moral language should focus instead on its unique function as a guide to human behavior, what Stevenson called the "magnetism" of moral terms.

philosophypages.com



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 11:38:58 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 82486
 
To get back to the original question, the problem is simple, and not necessarily religious. There is a taboo on human experimentation, beyond a modicum needed to validate new treatments, and even then the protocols are strict. Cloning is one more step in the direction of relaxing the inhibition, and therefore towards the Brave New World of unlimited social control.......



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/26/2001 6:06:26 PM
From: TimF  Respond to of 82486
 
But I can't see why it's so critically important that humans cannot be cloned, nor why so much of the opposition seems to be from
the religious.
Is there some idea that someone cloned would be lacking a soul? Seems rather medieval. Or is it viewed as trespassing on
divine prerogative...?


Some people are against cloning precisely because they see it as trespassing on divine perogative.

I am against "theraputic" cloning because I see it as creating a human life just to destroy it for the benefit of others. I am against reproductive cloning because it doesn't work to well. I would not be against allowing reproductive cloning to be legal if it was safe and reliable.

This is not to say that I think that only things that are safe and reliable should be legal. I think people should be able to take their own risks, I just don't think it should be legal to put others and unreasonable risk.

Tim

Edit - This is the 9th response to your post. It seems you have stirred up some discussion...



To: thames_sider who wrote (38712)11/27/2001 2:57:08 PM
From: Yogizuna  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
Some of the callers to the Art Bell show very early this morning were concerned about whether or not a clone would have a soul, since it was man made.... Other callers were concerned that some clones would be created with fairly low intelligence to serve as slaves for the natural born, and a few worried other clones would be created simply for spare body parts.