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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: sim chambers who wrote (12901)	12/5/2001 9:41:36 PM
From: jjkirk	Respond to of 281500

Sim Re: i identified the problem from now and lets move forward without all the old inputs. i have no religion, that is why my jew comments may sound harsh. I offer the following repartee. 1. From: John Bartlett (1820–1905). Familiar Quotations, 10th ed. 1919. NUMBER: 8726 AUTHOR: Pliny the Elder (A.D. c. 23–A.D. 79) QUOTATION: "Man is the only one that knows nothing, that can learn nothing without being taught. He can neither speak nor walk nor eat, and in short he can do nothing at the prompting of nature only, but weep. " 2. I submit, therefore, that you cannot move forward without having learned from the past. I would liken it to a teenager listening to (and ignoring) a lecture in his first driver's ed class..."OK, Dood, let's get on the road." What basis is there for common ground with those who do not share our historical values?...with those who have no historical values?... 3. I am sure that you do not intend to discard history in deriving solutions for the future. I think it was B. Liddell Hart who wrote the book, "Why Can't We Learn from History". The premise was that we cannot learn what we choose to ignore. Ciao jj

To: sim chambers who wrote (12901)	12/5/2001 10:13:06 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Respond to of 281500

No problem Sim.. I used to p*ss off my Jewish Liberal professor who taught a class in the Arab-Israeli conflict, and who was sympathetic to the Palestinian cause (it made him feel warm and fuzzy). I kept asserting that this was a battle of wills, not a battle of right and wrong, since NEITHER party could clearly assert some moral superiority to their cause. It's a battle for two different people to find a chunk of land to call their own, because no one else will let them live in peace. The Arabs have abused the Palestinians just as much as the Jews might have. And the Arabs have waged unrelenting war upon Israel from day one, setting back the economic prosperity of the entire region decades, while they fought their petty squabbles over whether or not Israel has the right to exist. Well, my perspective is that Israel, like the US and many other states, exist because they have the economic and military wherewhithal to perpetuate their existence against opponents. Arab leaders in the region are like punch-drunk boxers who don't know when to say, "enough is enough" and just acknowledge that they can't win the bout. So they perpetuate this myth that they will someday destroy Israel, despite the fact that it will mean they themselves being turned into obsidian parking lots glowing in the dark. Again, there is no "right and wrong" here. Only "my will to survive" versus "your will to destroy me", interchangably presented. And this is what has to change. An acknowledgement that both have the right to exist. Unfortunately, given the PA's geographical location, this will mean that cannot possess an army that can threaten Israel, nor will they be able to engage in any alliances with states hostile to Israel. But they will have autonomy, and the right to decide their economic future. Of course, had Jordan been the Palestinian homeland it was originally intended to be by the British, this would be a different scenario.. But the Brits had to give it to the Hashemites to give them some place to go when the Saudis won control over the peninsula and Islamic holy sites. Btw, did you know that another Hashemite King was given Iraq? How do you think the Shiite Arabs in Iraq felt about that? They don't have a homeland either. Hawk

To: sim chambers who wrote (12901)	12/6/2001 5:10:21 AM
From: unclewest	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

my ignorance of the history.......is exactly why i can see this clearly... i identified the problem from now i have no religion, that is why my jew comments may sound harsh. sim, you believe ignorance of history and lack of a religion gives you clearer vision. you said we are too focused on one religion...judaism. you have identified the jews as the problem. what a novel approach...to eliminate all historical perspective to gain clearer vision. now that you know the problem...do the solutions come just as easy? can you use the same technique and non-historical perspective to enlighten us and explain israel's involvement in..... why, in the mid 90s, ossama bin lost, a sunni muslim, was calling for a global war against Americans and why in 98 he issued a fatwa (religious ruling) which was a declaration of war against the united states. why the sunni muslims have slaughtered hundreds of shiite muslims in pakistan this year. why the muslims slaughtered 11 female school teachers in algeria in 1997 for the crime of teaching boys and girls in the same classroom? why the muslims have been slaughtering christians in indonesia all week? why the muslims initiated the beirut slaughter in 1982? why in 98 when the sunni muslims took mazar-e-sharif they slaughtered 6,000 shia civilians. why the muslims in the phillipines keep slaughtering christians and buddhists? why the muslims in kashmir are slaughtering hindus? why the muslims in somalia are slaughtering primitive tribesmen. why muslims killed 18 Catholics in october while they were attending mass in the pakistani town of bahawalpur. why the northern muslims in sudan keep slaughtering the christians in the south. why the muslims killed 260, nearly all civilians, in the truck-bomb explosions at the US Embassies in nairobi, kenya, and dar-es-salaam, tanzania. why the muslims so enjoy killing atheistic russians. i too think there may be some religious connection to much of this... but, unfortunately, i do not have a non historical eye, so i can't see it... my thinking has been poisoned by too much international travel, reading and fighting wars...so please help me...show me how to pin it all on the jews. while you are at it please explain why "ossama ain't been laid lately" has also declared saudi arabia, his homeland to be a country of heretics. the same word he uses to describe America and israel. i believe some muslims fear a war on terrorism is a war on them...i just don't understand that attitude...do you? unclewest