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To: Zardoz who wrote (79831)	12/8/2001 11:16:27 AM
From: long-gone	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116753

Educational Repost: Source: LewRockwell.com lewrockwell.com Our Duty to Spend? by Don Mathews Here's an ironic quotation: "The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." John Maynard Keynes, a famous British economist, wrote those in words in a book published in 1936. The words are as true today as they were back then: in the worldly realm of political economy, many practical people today are indeed the slaves of some defunct economist. The irony is the defunct economist is John Maynard Keynes. More than any other economist, Keynes is responsible for the notion that recessions are caused by underspending in the economy. The notion is hugely mistaken. It's also hugely popular. Open a newspaper or turn on the TV news these days and you're sure to find some pundit or public official exhorting consumers - which would be us - to get out there in these troubled times and spend, spend, spend. Some go so far as to suggest that, by God, it's our civic duty to go out and spend because that's the only way to get the economy rolling again. One need not be an economist to recognize that something here is really out of whack. When did saving become such a bad thing? Is the economy harmed by supplying it with financial capital? And is thrift no longer a virtue? If thrift is now a vice, then many Americans, in the current recession, are guilty. But some are more guilty than others. The most guilty are easy to identify. Since March, unemployment has increased by several million people. No doubt the newly unemployed have sharply cut back on their spending. Should these people get back on the stick and go on a shopping spree? Is that what a true economic patriot would do after losing his job? People with some savings invested in stocks or in stock mutual funds have no doubt cut back on their spending, too. Young people saving for their first home, parents saving for their children's college education, retired folks - these sorts of people. Take, for example, a retired couple who worked hard in their younger years and saved when they could and amassed a portfolio of NASDAQ stocks worth, say, $100,000 in March of 2000. Today that portfolio would be worth about $38,000. Should this couple now go out spend like there's no tomorrow? Would that be good? How about the many businesses whose profits are puny today because they were sucked in by the Federal Reserve's easy money and all the "new economy" hype and overinvested in new technology during the 1990s? Should these firms disregard their past errors and load up on new technology all over again? Or perhaps the rest of us have a duty to take up the slack. Never mind that consumer debt has gone through the roof. When economic duty calls, we must answer, even if the cost is bankruptcy, right? Exhorting people to spend, spend, spend during a recession to get the economy rolling again is like exhorting some one who's sick with pneumonia to go for a jog because he needs to start breathing deeper again. The notion that recessions are caused by underspending is wrong, never mind defunct. It mistakes effect for cause. A decrease in spending during a recession is an effect of recession, not a cause. The causes run much deeper. December 8, 2001 Don Mathews [send him mail] is a columnist for the Brunswick (Ga.) News. Copyright © 2001 LewRockwell.com

To: Zardoz who wrote (79831)	12/8/2001 11:18:11 AM
From: Square_Dealings	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116753

"Derivatives are a zero sum game," Enron is proof of that. The banks are praying that the Fed will bail them out along with every other sucker that thinks if they get in trouble they deserve to get zero interest rates and skate. The game is coming to a screeching halt as the bonds are telling. M.

To: Zardoz who wrote (79831)	12/8/2001 11:20:56 AM
From: Ahda	Respond to of 116753

I am not going to go into the details of Gata it is not the issue. I do not agree with rigged. What i will say is this if there is true substance there is less creativity. Creativity starts when the underwriters and the client meets as far as registered stocks go in the cases of many companies it is the need for additional funds that starts the whole ball rolling. Yesteryear had a closer employee and employer advantage so owning stock you owed a bit of the company your future retirement so to speak, not now. What has happened is not so much a wrong doing as a method to keep growing that paper service could very well have created to many flaws. Paper service differs little from the Edisons first quest and the products continued to flow due to creativity. However taking one human being looking for a better method the result could be much like fusion where the end product was the atomic bomb as in Enron. As far as an end product ours has been continual inflation. Taking this a bit further unemployment figures are about as accurate as my own sensor of talking to people i know about there current business situation. The indicators have not turned positive. We could pretty well dismantle the SEC at this point they dont have the where with all to do much in the way of prevention of problems. At present we can almost state their biggest request is forms filled out correctly. Without risk there is little hope of profit so we have taken on the title of masters of risk. The risk however can become so extended the risk stage is now bordering on that of suicidal action. I do not feel this is called rigged but outsmarting self. It will be resolved but the process is going to be costly dollar wise.

To: Zardoz who wrote (79831)	12/8/2001 9:41:25 PM
From: d:oug	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116753

Sorry Hutch, zero sum game + rigged market = victims & criminals You let me down Hutch as i expected much babble from you to defend your derivative job profession, but all this thread received from your fliping & spining your activity was a simple view taken that the world is not fair and there will always be winners and losers. Guess its clear once again, Hutch will do what it takes to be a winner under those life numbing conditions that push into the gutter everything that tells of life as being an exchange of values. Yes Hutch, a day will arrive when derivatives become knowed as that evil activity that destroyed the financial worth of innocents, and yes they will go after their wealth stolden from them using lawsuits against these derivative houses, and their employees. So yes Hutch, your "Spoken like a fool...." to me echos now and is now heard by you from you for you. Also, your "... the logic you quote is flawed." may not serve you well when those who want their money returned decide not to accept this as paymints in full from you. Now, as in then, there is your "Bill Murphy's problem is..." which now has as an action item for you to e-mail these places and inform them of their folly errors in material that supports the Gata View. Now here is a thought Hutch, team up with o49r/gold_tutor and rewrite your post to me and include some where is the beef stuff to go along with your just a cowboy hat w/ no beef :o)ak Subj: STUNNING BARRONS: Robert D. Auerbach - That Shreddin' Fed Date: 12/8/01 From: LePatron@LeMetropoleCafe.com To: Dougak_a_ChewingAllOverHutch@aol.com Le Metropole Members, Served at The Little Bear Table. From today's Barrons: That Shreddin' Fed Just 18 minutes of Watergate tapes were erased, while the Fed's "edits" veil years of historic record By Robert D. Auerbach "The 1995 transcripts published this year, however, show..." FYI - GATA did not encourage Robert Auerback to write this commentary in Barrons, nor was it in my presentation at the New Orleans Investment Conference. Talk about credibility for GATA!! This article makes a mockery of Fed Counsel Mattingly's contention that his 1995 FOMC statement about ESF gold swaps was "garbled." GATA has nailed Alan Greenspan, the Fed and the ESF for what they are: blatant LIARS!!! It is about time that the Wall Street Journal and Barrons wake up and show some integrity by reporting on the U.S. gold scandal, which will go down as the most infamous financial scandal in U.S. history. BILL MURPHY CHAIRMAN GOLD ANTI-TRUST ACTION COMMITTEE (gata.org) All the best, Bill Murphy Le Patron, LeMetropoleCafe.com