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To: saukriver who wrote (109912)	12/27/2001 11:55:34 AM
From: oconnellc	Respond to of 152472

Kayaker, thanks for responding before I even got up this morning. Saukriver, I'm not sure I understand your point. It looks like you are saying that a valid decision of the Supreme Court should be ignored because the possibility exists that the current Court MIGHT overturn it. That seems like a silly argument. Sorry, but if that is what you are hanging your hat on... The reason I seemed like a jerk in my other post is because I was trying to be. Have you read the 4th and 5th Amendments? Let me include what I think are the important parts: 4th: The right of the people 5th: No person The framers of our constitution were pretty specific in their language. Do you think that 'the people' and 'persons' refer to the same or different groups? Ignore legalism, use common sense. I made the comment about rule of law because I think it is fairly obvious that they do refer to different groups. I think it is a bad idea to just start ignoring our laws just because they are a little inconvenient at the time. I am afraid of terrorists, but to tell you the truth... I am afraid of my government. The founding fathers created the constitution because they knew we should be afraid of any government. The US government has a long history of abusing US citizens (and others). I don't want to give them an inch. Every single thing they do should be proved against US law. Now, to get back to the original post. To think that people who are in the US legally, should not have any rights under the US Constitution... I'm appalled and frightened. Hmmm... What next? You need to be a citizen for at least one year before you 'inherit' all the rights due to 'people' under the constitution? I'm not saying that this is what the original poster wanted. But the same people who had FBI files of American citizens (who happened to be political enemies) 'lost' in their living room are the ones who are going to start thinking that way. This rant is long enough. I'm getting myself mad and I should stop. I think you get the point. Chris

To: saukriver who wrote (109912)	12/27/2001 11:59:59 AM
From: Kayaker	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 152472

OT Correct that Plyer exists...until the SC...so severely distinguishes it or overrules it: Plyer v Doe is a narrow issue (denial of public education services to illegal immigrant children). It may or may not be overturned, but that was not my focus. I was pointing to the fact that aliens are guaranteed due process of law by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments (more below). That isn't going to change any time soon. Aliens also have some 4th amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures. I live in the country most often visited by Americans. Lots of aliens up here in the summer months. Tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of them own vacation property or 2nd homes here. Do you really want to deny aliens "due process of law" and "protection against unreasonable searches and seizures"? ------------------------------------------------ Why does a non-citizen who is detained or about to be deported have any constitutional rights to due process of law? Because the Constitution and the Supreme Court say so. Both the Fifth and the Fourteenth amendments to the Constitution say that “no person” — not just American citizens — can be deprived of “life, liberty, or property without due process of law.” In a long line of decisions going back to 1896, the Supreme Court has held that even though foreigners are not entitled to the full range of constitutional rights that citizens enjoy, they are granted some protections under the due-process clause of the Fifth Amendment. msnbc.com