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Politics : Impeach George W. Bush -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: jlallen who wrote (8995)12/31/2001 12:20:01 PM
From: jttmab  Respond to of 93284
 
I'll do this in a few posts....we'll do the quick part now. Using the LIFO system...

The USSC had before it a hard task. Each side argued its case well. The law is not an exact science and so reasonable minds may differ over whether the case was correctly decided. However, the charge that the decision was indefensible is indefensible itself. Ours is a nation of laws. One of our most basic principles is that disputes should be settled in Courts of law when necessary and that once decided, in the absence of obvious fraud or collusion, those decisions are to be respected by winners and losers alike. There are many opportunities in this free and open society we enjoy as US citizens for those who feel aggrieved by the decision to bring about change to ensure that there is no repeat of the circumstances which brought about the unique situation the Court was presented in Bush v Gore. However partisan attacks on the USSC without adequate basis in law or in fact do not promote reasonable discourse nor justice. In any case, there must be a winner and a loser. The losers in this case who attack the Court and call for unreasonable punitive actions against the majority and the Bush Administration ignore the basic tenet of US jurisprudence which is that final judicial decisions, lawfully decided, are to be respected or at least tolerated in order to maintain an orderly society. It is these critics who do damage to our freedoms and democratic principles.

Irrelevent to the question of the correctness of the decision or my post. I tolerate the position, I haven't called for impeaching the Court. I've said it was a poorly written opinion. Or are you taking the John Ashcroft position of demonizing any one that disagrees? Delete your paragraph as extraneous and irrelevant.

Finally, the prediction that the decision would undermine the legitimacy of the Bush administration and the Court itself turned out to be wishful thinking on behalf of the critics. Even before the WTC tragedy, Mr. Bush enjoyed a 55-63% approval rating. Fully 62% answered in the affirmative that he had been legitimately elected after his first 100 days. (Washington Post/ABC poll).

The same is true as to the public’s view of the Court. Both the Pew Center for the People and Gallup polls noted no significant decrease (in fact an increase) in approval for the Court after the first 100 days of the Bush Administration.


I made no such prediction and the USSC was specifically designed to not be a tool of public opinion. The Justices are appointed, not elected and they are lifetime position, so that they are specifically separated from the affects of public opinion. Public opinion has no bearing what so ever on the correctness of the opinion of the Court. So you can also delete these two paragraphs as extraneous and irrelevant.

Another charge has been that the majority was driven by a self interested political motive. That motive has been alleged to be that a conservative President would appoint like minded justices to the Court. It is impossible for any of us to know what exactly was in the minds of the majority, but the failure of most critics to actively engage the reasoning in the decision might lead a cynic to conclude this was the premise the critics proceeded from rather than a conclusion they reached. One wonders if these critics have considered how easy it might be for those cynics to point to potent partisan interests of the accusers. Many critics of the decision were staunch supporters of the previous Democrat administration.

Once again, a claim that I have not made and irrelevent to the correctness of the decision. You seem to like to inject a lot of irrelevant items....another quirk of yours I suppose. Irrelevancy.

The defects I perceive in the liberal reaction to the decision are many. First many critics offered rather intemperate assertions for public consumption supported only by their authority as “legal scholars”. These critics called the decision “unprincipled”, “illegitimate”, “undemocratic”, etc. but offered no explanation for these conclusions. Unfortunately, these assertions are remembered by virtue of the nature of the inflammatory language used and the unsophisticated listener might not notice that such reasoning was totally unsupported.

Unsupported criticism is as just as irrelevant. Why bring up irrelevant. Some people contend that the earth is flat. So what? Are you trying to influence the unsophisticated listener by introducing the unfounded arguments. It's irrelevant. Delete the paragraph.

No doubt the ultimate “correctness” of the Court’s decision will be debated for years to come. The case is complicated and raises many difficult questions of law, of fact and of politics. However, the critics who claim that there is nothing about the decision that can not be explained by “partisanship” are all wet. The hasty and ill considered denunciations of what the critics see as “partisanship” may apply more aptly to the accusers than to those accused. And in fact that hasty and overheated criticism has not helped to engender a careful consideration of the decision about two of our most important democratic institutions, the election of the President and the USSC itself. This hasty, overheated and ill-considered criticism is more harmful to the political process than anything the USSC did, in my humble opinion.

Well I agree with the first sentence. That's a no brainer. The rest is yada yada and completely irrelevant to the correctness of the decision. Delete the paragraph.

The complaints about the decision are many. Critics claim the conservative majority, Rehnquist, O’Connor, Scalia, Thomas and Kennedy hypocritically disregarded their long held and frequently cited judicial philosophy of restraint, deference to the states and a preference to see the political process as opposed to the Courts resolve disputes. Critics claim the USSC, counter to its practice in previous cases, extended the protections of the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, failed to defer to the FLSC’s interpretation of Florida law and aggressively intervened in the political process before it had a chance to work itself out. According to the critics, an illegitimate partisanship was the only explanation for the actions of the majority and the damage flowing from these actions was supposed to be substantial. It was said the decision would undermine the Presidency of George W. Bush and the Court itself. And yet the speed and ferocity with which the decision was denounced was unprecedented in my opinion. And the critics attacks generally were offered without a careful analysis which would justify the opprobrium the decision received. In fact the speed with which the decision was condemned seems to confirm that a careful analysis was not considered before such intense, uncompromising denunciations were issued by liberal critics of the decision.

Jumping into the middle of the par....And the critics attacks generally were offered without a careful analysis which would justify the opprobrium the decision received. How the hell would you know whether there was carefull analysis or not? How long does carefull analysis take when you've already been pulling the case law while the USSC is making a decision. And whether the critics were hasty or not has nothing whatsoever to do with the correctness of the decision. More yada, yada that's irrelevant. Delete the paragraph.

I think that takes care of the irrelevant stuff. Though I reserve the right to review it on that aspect once it's recompiled.

Moving back down the passage to something a quite interesting section....

“The conservatives stopped the democratic process in its tracks, with thousands of votes yet uncounted, first by ordering an unjustified stay of the statewide recount of the Florida vote already in progress and then declaring in one of the least persuasive Supreme Court opinions I have ever read, that there was not time left for the recount to continue.”

Most assuredly, whether the democratic process was stopped in its tracks depends on whether you regard the FLSC decisions the USSC reviewed as lawful and democratic. If you believe, as three of the seven members of the FLSC did, that the FLSC decisions substantially departed from the statutory scheme in place on November 7 for resolving election disputes, created equal protection problems and created an unworkable and therefore unlawful remedy, one might conclude the USSC rescued the democratic process. Reasonable minds might disagree as to which ruling was more lawful or democratic but critics like Dworkin examined neither FLSC decision and those decisions are still largely not understood by the public.


Interesting argument, if you agree with the minority FLSC than the USSC saved us all. If you agree with the majority than you're a reasonable person. Very generous of you.

...and those decisions are still largely not understood by the public.

Is there any decision that is largely not understood by the public? Exluding those persons that participate directly in law or education thereof, what percentage of the public do you think has read any decision of the court the prior term of the Court?

jttmab



To: jlallen who wrote (8995)12/31/2001 12:52:08 PM
From: Kenneth E. Phillipps  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 93284
 
History will judge the decision in Bush v Gore along with the Dredd Scott decision and Plessy v Ferguson as partisan political decisions.



To: jlallen who wrote (8995)1/1/2002 7:29:49 AM
From: Zoltan!  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 93284
 
Excellent distillation.

Two other points:

1) the US Supreme Court is held in greater esteem after the Bush v. Gore decision than precedent - confounding the partisan Dem critics.

2) The result was the same. George Bush would have been elected President even if the real Supremes had not reigned in the partisan Dem and fully recalcitrant Fl 'supreme' court - a collection of political hacks not usually exposed to daylight, for good reason, they wilt when exposed. The rogue Fl court threw out all previous precedent with reckless abandon, overturning the FL trial courts that actually followed the law. The Fl 'supremes' made it up as they went along and that's why they are held in virtually universal disrepute today.

It is instructive to note that the real Supremes did not change the outcome - had the real Supremes had not acted the FL legislature and Governor would also have just as effectively vacated the the decision of the rogue Fl court as the Supremes did - sending the Bush slate of electors to DC. Congress would have seated the Bush slate and the electors would have sealed the Bush win.

Addendum:

National heroine Katherine Harris is going to be elected to Congress - virtually by acclamation;

and Governor Bush will win re-election by 20-40% over failed ex-AG "Jethrine" Reno. That deaf, dumb and blind mule is toast.



To: jlallen who wrote (8995)2/5/2002 3:02:09 PM
From: ThirdEye  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 93284
 
This author, whoever he is, cites hasty and ill-considered ravaging by critics of the Court, yet he addresses the more substantive issues that have since been written about voluminously in only the slimmest of fashion. If that's sufficient for you, then fine. But even he admits that reasonable people can disagree, even strongly. Whatever so called knee-jerk "lies" you refer to have since been backed up more than adequately.



To: jlallen who wrote (8995)6/7/2002 1:30:28 PM
From: DuckTapeSunroof  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 93284
 
Nothing in here I didn't already know... and quite a bit not in here that I do.

:) Try a little harder to "educate" me next time....

Re: "Critics claim"

>>> The most cogent criticisms are contained in the Court's minority dissenting opinions...

Excerpted from your post:

"...No doubt the ultimate “correctness” of the Court’s decision will be debated for years to come. The case is complicated and raises many difficult questions of law, of fact and of politics."

"... Even defenders of the decision in Bush v. Gore must admit that the remedy adopted by the Court is the weakest link of the decision."

>>> No kidding....

"... Finally, the prediction that the decision would undermine the legitimacy of the Bush administration and the Court itself turned out to be wishful thinking on behalf of the critics."

>>> Irrelevant to any consideration of judicial appropriateness of the action. Let's not muddy up legal arguments with "ends justify the means" considerations.

"... The law is not an exact science and so reasonable minds may differ over whether the case was correctly decided."

>>> Yep.

"... However, the charge that the decision was indefensible is indefensible itself."

>>> I don't think many are claiming the decision was totally 'indefensible', however "weak", "poorly reasoned", "destructive to the Court", "partisan appearing" and "an unnecessary preemptive interference into a political process to correct imagined harms which could just as easily have been corrected at a later stage in the political process by court action - if such action was warranted" are descriptive phrases that come easily to mind.