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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (42509)1/21/2002 8:16:28 PM
From: Solon  Respond to of 82486
 
Bravo, Mr. Dithers! that was a fairly decent and cogent post. I am quite impressed. You added a lot of very pertinent information which I have not had the time or occasion to say.

"Every step closer to Japan meant heavier casualties for us, culminating at Okinawa. The Japanese homeland was a mystery to us, shielded behind a bamboo curtain (in an expression of the times). You seem to think that at that point the burden of responsibility for ending the war shifted to the U.S."

No, Mr. Dithers. My point was not to diminish or to dismiss the incredible ugliness of war; but it was to place upon the greatest nation in the world the responsibility (many years later) to forge the path of morality and strength. There is nothing more moral or respectable than the admission that even the great and the good may err. There is nothing more wonderful than admitting one's humanity. Only fools ride a high horse.

It is correct that the army was still quite unstable. It was mostly the army who stood to lose from War Crimes Trials.

"Revisionists such as yourself..."

Not true. I read; I learn. If anything, I anm saddened more by evidence against the American Government and military than most people are.

"Togo forcefully told him that Japan would fight to the death rather than accept unconditional surrender"

This, of course was a sensible negotiating stance considering that "God" was at stake. Really, it was honour...and the identity of a people. The "God" justification ranged from fantastic to pragmatic.

Had Japan ever said to the world, "Okay, we give up" ... the war would have ended and there would have been no more bombings and no more suffering.

But they said that! Do you kill thousands and thousands of innocents because of grammar!!

"I am an admirer of WW, but by keeping out of the first world war until near the end of it, WW lost any leverage as to the peace terms at Versailles. Those terms were extremely harsh on Germany (to WW's lament). The result was that the seeds of an inevitable World War II were sowed. If we elected war leaders on the basis of scholarship, we would not be having this discussion, as we long would have lost our freedom. There are times for thinking and hoping ... and there are times for action"

Well said. I agree. In many ways I admire Truman; but as I have made clear, I believe he could have accomplished necessary goals without killing innocents.

When I intruded in this conversation (with Yogi) it involved the ideas of innocents being killed. I have tried honestly to make my points. In my mind, modern scholarship shows clearly that errors were made. I do not claim it is a war crime (only one percent of them were ever proscecuted anyway); I only claim that opinions against the terrible bombings are legitimate and "AMERICAN". Let us leave it at that.

Remember that Admiral Leahy was of the opinion that the bombs would not work

Whoops! How interesting that you should have caught that too! I don't believe that that was his true opinion! But the whole thing is interesting, indeed!

There are still documents that have not ben divulged, so I suppose we can argue this again in 10 or 20 years--if we live! ...



To: J. C. Dithers who wrote (42509)1/22/2002 4:29:04 AM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
"Can you give us documentation as to where and when this assurance was given to the Japanese government?"

(13) We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all

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Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.

"The Japanese Government are ready to accept the terms enumerated in the joint declaration which was issued at Potsdam on July 26, 1945 . . ."

Japanese offer of surrender, exchange of correspondence between the Secretary of State, JAMES F. BYRNES, and MAX GRÄSSLI, Charge d'Affaires ad interim of Switzerland, August 10 through the 14th, 1945. [2]

GRÄSSLI Letter of August 10, 1945.

AUGUST 10, 1945

SIR:

I have the honor to inform you that the Japanese Minister to Switzerland, upon instructions received from his Government, has requested the Swiss Political Department to advise the Government of the United States of America of the following:

"In obedience to the gracious command of His Majesty the Emperor who, ever anxious to enhance the cause of world peace, desires earnestly to bring about a speedy termination of hostilities with a view to saving mankind from the calamities to be imposed upon them by further continuation of the war, the Japanese Government several weeks ago asked the

[2] Department of State Bulletin, August 12, 1945. For Potsdam
Declaration see preceding document.

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Soviet Government, with which neutral relations then prevailed, to render good offices in restoring peace vis-à-vis the enemy powers. Unfortunately, these efforts in the interest of peace having failed, the Japanese Government in conformity with the august wish of His Majesty to restore the general peace and, desiring to put an end to the untold sufferings entailed by war as quickly as possible, have decided upon the following.


"The Japanese Government are ready to accept the terms enumerated in the joint declaration which was issued at Potsdam on July 26th, 1945, by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China, and later subscribed by the Soviet Government, [3] with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler.

"The Japanese Government sincerely hope that this understanding is warranted and desire keenly that an explicit indication to that effect will be speedily forthcoming."

In transmitting the above message the Japanese Minister added that his Government begs the Government of the United States to forward its answer through the intermediary of Switzerland. Similar requests are being transmitted to the Governments of Great Britain and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics through the intermediary of Sweden, as well as to the Government of China through the intermediary of Switzerland. The Chinese Minister at Berne has already been informed of the fore

[3] In its declaration of war against Japan, effective as of Aug. 9 1945,
the Soviet Government retroactively joined in the declaration of July 26,
1945, issued at Potsdam, Germany, defining terms of surrender for Japan.

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going through the channel of the Swiss Political Department.

Please be assured that I am at your disposal at any time to accept for and forward to my Government the reply of the Government of the United States.

Accept [etc.]

GRÄSSLI
Charge d'Affaires ad interim
of Switzerland

The Honorable
JAMES F. BYRNES
Secretary of State.

BYRNES Reply of August 11, 1945. [4]

AUGUST 11, 1945

SIR:

I have the honor to acknowledge receipt of your note of August 10, and in reply to inform you that the President of the United States has directed me to send to you for transmission by your Government to the Japanese Government the following message on behalf of the Governments of the United States, the United Kingdom, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and China:

"With regard to the Japanese Government's message accepting the terms of the Potsdam proclamation, but containing the statement, 'with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a sovereign ruler,' our position is as follows:

"From the moment of surrender the authority of

[4] Ibid.

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the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate the surrender terms.

"The Emperor will be required to authorize and ensure the signature by the Government of Japan and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters of the surrender terms necessary to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration, and shall issue his commands to all the Japanese military, naval and air authorities and to all the forces under their control wherever located to cease active operations and to surrender their arms, and to issue such other orders as the Supreme Commander may require to give effect to the surrender terms.


"Immediately upon the surrender the Japanese Government shall transport prisoners of war and civilian internees to places of safety, as directed, where they can quickly be placed aboard Allied transports.

"The ultimate form of government of Japan shall, in accordance with the Potsdam Declaration, be established by the freely expressed will of the Japanese people.

In the end they made it clear that the Emperor was integral to the process and thus (obviously) not to be humiliated, tried, or executed. And so the morning comes and we spin the world around once more...